Good news for panamera fans looking for a bargain!
Discussion
hornetrider said:
I'm sure it's a fabulous car - however the fact it hit every branch on the way down does nothing for it's residuals. If it was a looker it would be up there with the 911.
I think that's the point of this thread.
100% agree.I think that's the point of this thread.
It's a bit too big and not a great looker, but if you can live with that, a used example could soon be a positive bargain.
Henry-F said:
What is "proper" or "old money" when it's at home ?
If you mean people living in a stately home or who wear yellow / red cords then possibly not. But for the rest of us money is money.
I think there are a good number of cars which you might class as unsuitable to old money. BMW X series, Cayenne, Merc M series in fact any 4 by 4 other than the Range Rover, any Lamborghini, possibly any Ferrari (the new stuff is a bit too flash), in fact pretty much the entire new car market bar possibly Bentley (although that bally GT has got in with the wrong sort).
I think you're trying too hard to pigeon hole the Panamera. You may not like it but the fact is it's a bloody good car to drive. This isn't some flash Harry that's all mouth and no trousers. It is first and foremost a superb car. If form has had to give way to function somewhere along the line be it to preserve occupant comfort, reduce production costs or improve performance then so be it. But it does work. I know !
Many people like the idea of buying into the Porsche brand but simply can't live with a 911 on a day to day basis. The Cayenne offered a solution but there's no getting away from the fact that it's a large 4 by 4. If you wanted a more traditional car into which the mother in law fitted or you could take the boys on a golfing weekend then Porsche wasn't for you. Now it is.
Not to worry for the rest of us. Porsche is still producing the 911 in it's various guises and has even got a new hyper car on line so the Panamera isn't watering down the brand in that department.
Henry
Hi Henry,If you mean people living in a stately home or who wear yellow / red cords then possibly not. But for the rest of us money is money.
I think there are a good number of cars which you might class as unsuitable to old money. BMW X series, Cayenne, Merc M series in fact any 4 by 4 other than the Range Rover, any Lamborghini, possibly any Ferrari (the new stuff is a bit too flash), in fact pretty much the entire new car market bar possibly Bentley (although that bally GT has got in with the wrong sort).
I think you're trying too hard to pigeon hole the Panamera. You may not like it but the fact is it's a bloody good car to drive. This isn't some flash Harry that's all mouth and no trousers. It is first and foremost a superb car. If form has had to give way to function somewhere along the line be it to preserve occupant comfort, reduce production costs or improve performance then so be it. But it does work. I know !
Many people like the idea of buying into the Porsche brand but simply can't live with a 911 on a day to day basis. The Cayenne offered a solution but there's no getting away from the fact that it's a large 4 by 4. If you wanted a more traditional car into which the mother in law fitted or you could take the boys on a golfing weekend then Porsche wasn't for you. Now it is.
Not to worry for the rest of us. Porsche is still producing the 911 in it's various guises and has even got a new hyper car on line so the Panamera isn't watering down the brand in that department.
Henry
I agree the list of 'unsuitable' cars that couldn't 'under any circumstances', be considered by the red cord brigade, is pretty comprehensive. They are also a very small % of the market. I simply cannot fathom why anyone would seriously consider the Panemera against say, an RS6 estate.
It may drive well, and I am sure Todd and his buddies at the racquet club in LA, or Terry the 'property developer' will love it, as they do the equally challenged Cayenne.
Maybe it's just me....or are the residuals offering an indication that design is still the key to sustained brand loyalty and sales growth.
The residuals are indicative of the type of car. Everybody knows / knew that is / was going to be the case. There is nothing you can do to stop it whether your name is Audi, Bentley, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW or Porsche. I'm afraid it goes with the territory.
As for the Audi question. Well for me it would be the handling, the fact that it looks pretty much the same as any other Audi and yes, the badge. But badge isn't just about the key ring on the bar down the Frog and Parrot, it's about knowing what's gone into the design and engineering of the car. It's about knowing who and how it will have been driven during development. It's about knowing the core aims of the engineers and designers, and it's about knowing how the thing has been bolted together. Yes, I'm sure there will be bits that need fixing but essentially it's properly designed when compared to some of the other contenders.
As for the image? Well I'm big and ugly enough to let people judge me on me, not the car. For sure some of the cars I drive cause people to judge me so they would bet their bottom dollar on it, (I'm thinking my 1995 Bentley Continental S in particular). But oh what fun when you get out and blow their perceptions right out of the water.
Ultimately I do what I want in life regardless of what others think of me. Providing no one gets harmed in the making my life then that's fine. If I want to sit with a load of pensioners learning to play bridge then so bit it. If I want to stand in the middle of a crowd of kids watching N-Dubz at the Isle of Wight Festval again, no one died and if I want to make a complete prat of myself murdering something on the karaoke then good for me.
If I was less confident I'd go out and buy an Audi Estate. Although deep down I'd be a little bit worried in case Audi was the new BMW. Everyone seems to drive them these days....
Keep smilng chaps (and chapesses!)
Henry
As for the Audi question. Well for me it would be the handling, the fact that it looks pretty much the same as any other Audi and yes, the badge. But badge isn't just about the key ring on the bar down the Frog and Parrot, it's about knowing what's gone into the design and engineering of the car. It's about knowing who and how it will have been driven during development. It's about knowing the core aims of the engineers and designers, and it's about knowing how the thing has been bolted together. Yes, I'm sure there will be bits that need fixing but essentially it's properly designed when compared to some of the other contenders.
As for the image? Well I'm big and ugly enough to let people judge me on me, not the car. For sure some of the cars I drive cause people to judge me so they would bet their bottom dollar on it, (I'm thinking my 1995 Bentley Continental S in particular). But oh what fun when you get out and blow their perceptions right out of the water.
Ultimately I do what I want in life regardless of what others think of me. Providing no one gets harmed in the making my life then that's fine. If I want to sit with a load of pensioners learning to play bridge then so bit it. If I want to stand in the middle of a crowd of kids watching N-Dubz at the Isle of Wight Festval again, no one died and if I want to make a complete prat of myself murdering something on the karaoke then good for me.
If I was less confident I'd go out and buy an Audi Estate. Although deep down I'd be a little bit worried in case Audi was the new BMW. Everyone seems to drive them these days....
Keep smilng chaps (and chapesses!)
Henry
No, he eis saying that the people that say the things you do are usually insecure. On the face of it Henry has a point imho.
Robbo66 said:
mmmmm....so anyone with an RS6 basically lacks the confidence to buy a Panemera ?....so pleased we are all different.
Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 14th October 17:11
I've thought for a long time that Audi buyers make their choice so as not to follow the herd. They bought Audis because they felt the BMW brand was becoming a bit too mainstream and populated by too many agressive sales reps.
Unfortunately so many individuals have jumped ship that Audi is the new BMW.
As you say, we're all differnet and that makes the world a more fun place to be.
Henry
Unfortunately so many individuals have jumped ship that Audi is the new BMW.
As you say, we're all differnet and that makes the world a more fun place to be.
Henry
Christer, I'll return later to answer your specific comments. I'll give you specific examples from my own experience of running businesses I owned in the US and Spain. For now, understand that I think you're wrong. She's no T Boone Pickens and none of those to which I refer on here are like that at all.
As for Henry's continuing commentary, that's had me laughing.
Robo666's first response in this thread sums things up nicely!
As for Henry's continuing commentary, that's had me laughing.
Robo666's first response in this thread sums things up nicely! Christer, Porsche know. They’ve alluded to such cannibalisation in their previous reports of sales performance in the US. The sudden collapse of 997 C4S models and Cayennes coincided with the P4S being the top selling (by far) variant of the Panamera - a clear story late last year and early this year.
If Porsche didn’t care about 911 sales, they wouldn't keep churning out variants ad infinitum (or nauseum). It is the icon for the brand. So they are rightly concerned about 911 sales in China, even if Henry remains sanguine.
Now to the IRS. Let's call my friend PP. She's a fully paid up American paying US taxes on all of her income. She's recently started buying up businesses, not to suck them dry, but to grow them. Because she's bored. That means employing more people, increasing her (their) tax contributions to the IRS. She buys Mercs as tax write offs because it means spending money on other local businesses (boosting jobs), rather than sending said money to the IRS – and she gets some reliable cruising fun on those marvellous wide, dry sunny roads. But she also buys businesses and uses some sort of tax write off model/rule to help make the business case for such purchases.
When I lived in the US, I discovered so many allowances that are not possible in the UK, and I’m really very small fry compared to the many wealthy people out there who can get better advice than I. Benefits/hits from running cars are different. Credits are given for performing certain civic duties such as even having an elderly relative living with you (IIRC). Some of these allowances are great. But get them wrong and the IRS is extremely aggressive - and equally unforgiving.
In Spain, I found something similar conducive to running porkers at a cost profile far superior than in the UK (before we even consider the beauty of the roads). Simple, really - run it as a company car for a Spanish registered company which also generates income to cover your entire lifestyle in Spain. No financial hammering as exists in the UK. You just need a good asesor (accountant/lawyer). I bought and sold one such business whilst winding some of you lot up over the issues of porker ownership!
Robbo66's points reminded me of a former friend (now an acquaintance really - must give her a call). Let’s call her AA. She's never worked a day in her life. Now circa 50, she inherited millions in her late teens. Her family made their money three-four generations ago, and is still making more of the stuff. However, when scouting for another car for use between London and her country pile, she considered the X5, and rejected it for - a Defender! Why? The X5 was "too much money for what it is". Said the same about the Cayenne. And she needed something more in keeping with the discrete country lifestyle that she has.
For their holidays, AA and PP spend more like £5-10k each trip (two-three times a year. often to the Caribbean). Both are alert to anyone trying to rip them off. They're not tight - they like cars, but they haven’t rushed to buy Panameras. The other two filthy rich people I know (guys) do probably 3,000 miles of driving per annum - between them! One owns the fezzas and porkers in Spain. Panamera for them? Not likely. I’m with Robbo66, and my experience bears that out. Someone else will come along with other examples to counter mine, of course, but I suggest the fact that Porsche expects to sell 20,000 a year worldwide makes my point. That's fewer than 7,000 cars each in the US, China and Germany. Not a lot of cars, really.......... Lots for the Panamera, but not a lot of cars.......
So, there are far more really rich people than that in China, the US, Germany and the UK. They’re not piling into Panameras. Some aspirants on this thread might Good for them - their money, their choice.
Now I really am leaving this thread!
If Porsche didn’t care about 911 sales, they wouldn't keep churning out variants ad infinitum (or nauseum). It is the icon for the brand. So they are rightly concerned about 911 sales in China, even if Henry remains sanguine.
Now to the IRS. Let's call my friend PP. She's a fully paid up American paying US taxes on all of her income. She's recently started buying up businesses, not to suck them dry, but to grow them. Because she's bored. That means employing more people, increasing her (their) tax contributions to the IRS. She buys Mercs as tax write offs because it means spending money on other local businesses (boosting jobs), rather than sending said money to the IRS – and she gets some reliable cruising fun on those marvellous wide, dry sunny roads. But she also buys businesses and uses some sort of tax write off model/rule to help make the business case for such purchases.
When I lived in the US, I discovered so many allowances that are not possible in the UK, and I’m really very small fry compared to the many wealthy people out there who can get better advice than I. Benefits/hits from running cars are different. Credits are given for performing certain civic duties such as even having an elderly relative living with you (IIRC). Some of these allowances are great. But get them wrong and the IRS is extremely aggressive - and equally unforgiving.
In Spain, I found something similar conducive to running porkers at a cost profile far superior than in the UK (before we even consider the beauty of the roads). Simple, really - run it as a company car for a Spanish registered company which also generates income to cover your entire lifestyle in Spain. No financial hammering as exists in the UK. You just need a good asesor (accountant/lawyer). I bought and sold one such business whilst winding some of you lot up over the issues of porker ownership!
Robbo66's points reminded me of a former friend (now an acquaintance really - must give her a call). Let’s call her AA. She's never worked a day in her life. Now circa 50, she inherited millions in her late teens. Her family made their money three-four generations ago, and is still making more of the stuff. However, when scouting for another car for use between London and her country pile, she considered the X5, and rejected it for - a Defender! Why? The X5 was "too much money for what it is". Said the same about the Cayenne. And she needed something more in keeping with the discrete country lifestyle that she has.
For their holidays, AA and PP spend more like £5-10k each trip (two-three times a year. often to the Caribbean). Both are alert to anyone trying to rip them off. They're not tight - they like cars, but they haven’t rushed to buy Panameras. The other two filthy rich people I know (guys) do probably 3,000 miles of driving per annum - between them! One owns the fezzas and porkers in Spain. Panamera for them? Not likely. I’m with Robbo66, and my experience bears that out. Someone else will come along with other examples to counter mine, of course, but I suggest the fact that Porsche expects to sell 20,000 a year worldwide makes my point. That's fewer than 7,000 cars each in the US, China and Germany. Not a lot of cars, really.......... Lots for the Panamera, but not a lot of cars.......
So, there are far more really rich people than that in China, the US, Germany and the UK. They’re not piling into Panameras. Some aspirants on this thread might Good for them - their money, their choice.
Now I really am leaving this thread!
Edited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 00:54
bcnrml said:
Off to quaff something half decent now, so it's over and out for me on this thread. Cordial saludos to you all
bcnrml said:
I'll really head off now. No offence meant.
And then you spoilt it all by coming back I'm trying desperately to pick through the drivel to find some content but struggling a little.
Porsche have introduced some special edition models as the current incarnation draws to a close. Porsche know customers will be thinking to themselves "I might as well wait until the new one comes out", so to counter that they offer cars with a little extra bang for your buck so as to compensate the owners for the fact their new car will be an old car that bit sooner. This isn't a new concept. They also drip feed new variants of a model throughout the model run to stimulate interest.
And then it all went a bit surreal for me after that. Something about tax laws in the US and Spain, having an incontinent elderly relative come live with you and some old bird trying to do the government's job by buying expensive Mercedes Benz motor cars on the grounds that her money will provide the car valeter with a day's pay at minimum wage. I don't know the maths but I'd have thought the folding paid in tax and distributed by the government would be a little more efficient.
As for £5k holidays, (or vacations as your friends will call them), wow. Big hitters then
Your typical Panamera owner might spend that on a flight, and they'll take the whole family who each buy a flight, and a decent hotel, then some nice meals, a few drinks and some local activities. They probably spend £5k a year having their boat washed, or the grass cut at their second home.
I'm not suggesting all Panamera owners are steel billionairs or the silicon valley super rich but the fact your pal drops £5k a couple of times a year doesn't necessarily mean she's in the Panamera radar, the fact she bought a Land Rover defender even less so.
Come on Brian let's keep it on track.
So, about these cheap Panameras.....
Henry
Shock horror! Stop the press........
..... some people disagree about cars and their favourites!
Don't tell the car companies or they will start making different cars
And if I put my mind to it, I reckon I could find a couple of people that don't like the Pan and also a couple that might like them.
Not sure what some on here are going on about to be honest?
(Will let you decide if you are one of the poeple I am chuckling at/with...)
..... some people disagree about cars and their favourites!
Don't tell the car companies or they will start making different cars
And if I put my mind to it, I reckon I could find a couple of people that don't like the Pan and also a couple that might like them.
Not sure what some on here are going on about to be honest?
(Will let you decide if you are one of the poeple I am chuckling at/with...)
Henry-F said:
I'm trying desperately to pick through the drivel to find some content but struggling a little.
Your posts show that the drivel's coming from you, Henry. You took this off topic by banging on about the filthy rich. What's the matter? Can't read propely anymore? My examples care not for your wares nor the price points you refer to. Did you read the posts concerned? If not, try doing so. If you did, then.....
Your idea of the filthy rich is probably based on ostentatious behaviour which my friends reject. AA probably makes more in interest than you turn over a year in sales. She's a big hitter in what she does in other areas (none of your business, actually).
AA and PP are almost permanently on holiday (I said they were bored, remember?). Trips to the Caribbean are to them discrete top ups, whilst for your aspirants, splashing out loudly is likely the norm. AA and PP are not you - you need to take a break from earning a crust selling Porsce's finest. Accept it. AA's not the Panamera customer you refer to. Neither is PP. Neither is HH who flies business class on long haul (not first), but will fly easyJet in Europe - as business is a waste of money as far as he's concerned. I agree!
I know a minor league millionaire who's also an accountant. He'll never touch porkers. Because he's seen the bills paid by some of his clients. Presumably he's rubbish too, Henry.
There are prohably enough millionaires in the UK (or Germany or the US) alone to buy up all of the 20,000 Panamaras Porsche plans worldwide. They are not stampeding for said cars. Why can't you just accept that without disparaging said persons for lifestyle choices that are different to yours?
With your target market, however, you may well do a good job in selling them. So now yours is the last word - have it. I'll probably read it over the weekend, but I hope you accept that you've patently failed to provide proper responses to my (and others') counters to the rubbish you've posted whilst taking this thread off topic.
Reminds me of our debate over porker engines and IT systems in which the drivel came purely from you. Look it up.
I have to say id imagine its a fantastic car as most Porsches are and should be because they are not cheap!..however anybody that doesnt think Stevie Wonder designed it is seriously deluded...its proportions are all wrong and its a fooking ugly car full-stop.My 7 year old draws cars like that and if it had a Skoda badge on it we would all be laughing at it.Porsche will spend the next 5 years as per the Cayenne trying to facelift it to bits to make it finally look right imo.In the aftermath of updates the early cars will be worth peanuts.
bcnrml said:
Christer, Porsche know. They’ve alluded to such cannibalisation in their previous reports of sales performance in the US. The sudden collapse of 997 C4S models and Cayennes coincided with the P4S being the top selling (by far) variant of the Panamera - a clear story late last year and early this year.
I am not really sure where you think I am "wrong". I just like to question what someone "knows" or think they know. I think everybody should do that. Repeating that "Porsche know" is not going to be make it any more factual. Porsche has speculated that there is cannibalisation but that doesn't mean they don't have their "facts" wrong. How a 4 door saloon is going to seriously cannibalise sales of a 2 door, agile sports car is difficult to explain. The main point of my post was to highlight the importance of questioning "facts" or what we "know". If you think I am wrong in doing so, know that I think you are wrongEdited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 00:54
bcnrml said:
So, there are far more really rich people than that in China, the US, Germany and the UK. They’re not piling into Panameras. Some aspirants on this thread might Good for them - their money, their choice.
I am not going to respond to your tales of rich people and the IRS as I presume it is a kind of "rhetorical account"? My point was that tax evasion should be encouraged imho, although it was not my intention to suggest that "PP" and "AA" and other friends of yours were specifically doing so. However, your initial explanation regarding the purchase of luxury cars wasperhaps a little "stunted" and allowed me to misinterpretEdited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 00:54
You also say that 20,000 Panameras are expected to be sold and that this is not a lot. I think it is a hell of a lot for the price point and type of car. Maybe we should compare the Panamera to its competitors to see how many are selling?
p.s. don't "quaff" too often lest you develop a posterior buddy of the primate variety;)
A lot of confused post on this thread.
Foremost cannibalised sales are only important if the car being sold is providing a lower profit margin than the car that would have been sold - unless someone has those figures it's a debate based on pure speculation/opinion.
Within the next year or so, as my kids continue to grow, I'll be back in the market for a 2+2 fast CAR which has more usable back seats. Porsche have now introduced a car into their range which in theory can compete for my business against bmw/merc/audi.
The point we should be debating is not whether the Panamera should exist, or if it has cannibalised 997 sales - but instead asking ourselves whether it is a competent competitor against the likes of the M3 for those not obsessed by the porsche badge.
The residuals quoted suggest not.
Foremost cannibalised sales are only important if the car being sold is providing a lower profit margin than the car that would have been sold - unless someone has those figures it's a debate based on pure speculation/opinion.
Within the next year or so, as my kids continue to grow, I'll be back in the market for a 2+2 fast CAR which has more usable back seats. Porsche have now introduced a car into their range which in theory can compete for my business against bmw/merc/audi.
The point we should be debating is not whether the Panamera should exist, or if it has cannibalised 997 sales - but instead asking ourselves whether it is a competent competitor against the likes of the M3 for those not obsessed by the porsche badge.
The residuals quoted suggest not.
Edited by steve singh on Friday 15th October 10:26
steve singh said:
The point we should be debating is not whether the Panamera should exist, or if it has cannibalised 997 sales - but instead asking ourselves whether it is a competent competitor against the likes of the M3 for those not obsessed by the porsche badge.
The residuals quoted suggest not.
Lets define the competitors!The residuals quoted suggest not.
Edited by steve singh on Friday 15th October 10:26
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff