Good news for panamera fans looking for a bargain!

[Robbo66]

christer said:

No, he eis saying that the people that say the things you do are usually insecure. On the face of it Henry has a point imho.

Robbo66 said:

mmmmm....so anyone with an RS6 basically lacks the confidence to buy a Panemera ?....so pleased we are all different.

Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 14th October 17:11

Charming....it's a point of view I have, that is shared by many. Because it differs to yours, shouldn't provoke such bitter/personal comments... How does making a decision to buy an RS6 and voicing an opinion on the Panemera make me or anyone 'insecure'?.

[clorenzen]

I simply don't understand this debate. Feelings aside Porsche has a tremendous success with the Panamera. They have sold more than 26.000 cars lifting the average margins per car to record levels and posting an almost all time high profit level last week. Sales of the 997 are tailing off as it is probably nearing the end of its model lifetime so whether the Panamera adds to its decline or not is rather academic as Porsche has succeeded in growing profits on group level. The Panamera is a sales success on the same level as the Cayenne was it when it was first introduced. People (including myself) might not like the look of it or want to buy it, but the commercial success is beyond doubt.

[golfer99]

Most of those lifted sales are in China ! They dont seem to care what they look like

[clorenzen]

Here is the article with all the stats:

"Say what you want about the new Panamera, but the premium sports saloon is selling like beer at Oktoberfest. Within the first year of production, Porsche sold 22, 518 copies of the Panamera sports saloon globally, with 2,530 vehicles in Germany alone. While the Stuttgart-based automaker did not break down country-specific sales numbers, oddly enough, it released some data on city-specific sales.

In North America, which is traditionally Porsche's most significant sales market, the company sold 890 Panamera saloons in Los Angeles and 760 in New York. In Asia, 300 vehicles were delivered to Hong Kong this past year, while 223 examples made their way to Tokyo and another 188 to Shanghai. In other cities across the globe, Porsche sold 285 Panameras in Dubai, 203 in Moscow, 206 in Munich, 117 in Hamburg and 108 in Berlin.

"Our corporate strategy of value-oriented growth has proven itself to be a successful model: With the Panamera, Porsche has clearly positioned itself with the sportiest automobile in the high-end and luxury-class market and achieves already a 13 per-cent share of its segment today", said Bernhard Maier, Member of the Management Board for Sales and Marketing.

Currently, Porsche offers five variants of its sports saloon, including the Panamera and Panamera 4 with a 300HP V6, the Panamera S and Panamera 4S with a 400 HP V8, and the flagship Turbo model with a 500 HP V8.

Leading the charts with 9,394 vehicles delivered, is the Panamera 4S, followed by the Turbo (6,171 vehicles) and the Panamera S (4,563 vehicles). However, the six-cylinder Panamera, which was introduced into the market only a few weeks ago, is quickly catching up having already found 2,390 new owners."

Edited by clorenzen on Friday 15th October 11:06

[hornetrider]

Thread title "Good news for Panamera fans looking for a bargain"

Porsche appears to have sold stloads of them which is great news for Porsche but not so great news for owners who have an eye on residuals.

Oversupply + back end of bus looks = massive depreciation i.e. "Good news for Panamera fans looking for a bargain"

/ends

[bcnrml]

christer said:

[If you think I am wrong in doing so, know that I think you are wrong

To your first post on knowing, I agree, so I'm comfortable that you think I am wrong. But using your argument, you cannot know that I am wrong can you?

christer said:

bcnrml said:

So, there are far more really rich people than that in China, the US, Germany and the UK. They’re not piling into Panameras. Some aspirants on this thread might Good for them - their money, their choice.

Edited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 00:54

I am not going to respond to your tales of rich people and the IRS as I presume it is a kind of "rhetorical account"? My point was that tax evasion should be encouraged imho, although it was not my intention to suggest that "PP" and "AA" and other friends of yours were specifically doing so. However, your initial explanation regarding the purchase of luxury cars wasperhaps a little "stunted" and allowed me to misinterpret

Well, PP is based on facts. AA and HH are real too. I was being brief to save a long post, and extended it later to counter waht I thought was you saying that PP was evading (rather than avoiding or minimising) her taxes.

christer said:

You also say that 20,000 Panameras are expected to be sold and that this is not a lot. I think it is a hell of a lot for the price point and type of car. Maybe we should compare the Panamera to its competitors to see how many are selling?

p.s. don't "quaff" too often lest you develop a posterior buddy of the primate variety;)

20,000 per year is not a lot for that price point when you consider its competition. It is a lot for Porsche, indeed. They want to lift production ever higher beyond six figures annually. Who are they competing with? Lexus. BMW. Audi. Mercedes (CL, CLS, S and yes, even the high end of the E class). Globally.

IIRC, Merc's S Class was the market leader globally in the depressed 2009. It remains the global leader in 2010, and hasn't bene dented by the Panamera in China. It sold 6,600 S class units in Germany to September 2010 (difficult market at present, Germany). I expect it has sold many more than that in China and the US where sales are roaring ahead. Indeed, Mercedes is the biggest premium brand for cars in China and sold over 100k cars in that maket by September 2010 alone. Haven't dug up the full details but the S class is still the dominant player, consistent with my point about what the average Li prefers to be passengered in. Clearly not as keen on crested (or crackling) pork.

By the way, I think Hornetrider's correct

---

Steve Singh, you're forgetting that the 911 was and still is used as a car for a family man (mainly) with kids. For those ignoring Steve's point, I say you can buy the Panamera if you like (your money) but others on here don't think that'll be a wise decision (especially if you're grossing between 75k and 150k per year, and have two or more kids at private school). Think you'll be dropping 10k a year in depreciation alone (yes, still) when school fees cost more than that?

Edited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 12:14

[Henry-F]

hornetrider said:

Thread title "Good news for Panamera fans looking for a bargain"

Porsche appears to have sold stloads of them which is great news for Porsche but not so great news for owners who have an eye on residuals.

Oversupply + back end of bus looks = massive depreciation i.e. "Good news for Panamera fans looking for a bargain"

/ends

But these were never going to be depreciation proof. How many times in one thread can you repeat that this section of the car market is always going to suffer heavy depreciation. If Panam didn't sell in volume it would be deemed as rubbish and dropped in value, now you are saying if it's popular and sells in reasonable numbers it's going to drop in value. What is Porsche to do then ?

Buyers of these cars accept that that's what happens. Look at the competition. And on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW? Porsche Panam, Bentley GT (probably the car's biggest volume rival) and BMW 3 series. Spot the odd one out (it's the BM ).

Finally an article quoting the facts, I presume a typo in your previous claim of 6,000 units sold in LA.

Whilst we may debate until our fingers bleed over the ether, one thing's for sure. A few people have put their money where their mouth is and gone out and bought one. Another 150 have been delivered as we've been typing

Keep smiling

Henry

[Henry-F]

Sorry make that 350 cars, I hadn't realised when the thread was started

H.

[RichB]

Henry-F said:

...on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW?...

I didn't spot that but it's hysterical! Must have been posted by someone who aspires to a 3-Series.

[hornetrider]

I think you may be getting me mixed up with someone else fella, I haven't quoted any figures

[steve singh]

Henry-F said:

And on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW? Henry

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

My point being at the point of 3 years down the line the Panamera is forecast to be worth £30k odd (as per Mike @ sports and classic) and the M3 3 years down the line is worth....wait for it...nearly £30k odd...ohhh looks like I have a choice in that price bracket for a fast 2+2 car which will both be 3 years old (with seats that can be reasonably used by adults or kids who have outgrown the 911)

Edited by steve singh on Friday 15th October 12:45

[bcnrml]

steve singh said:

Henry-F said:

And on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW? Henry

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

My point being at the point of 3 years down the line the Panamera is forecast to be worth £30k odd (as per Mike @ sports and classic) and the M3 3 years down the line is worth....wait for it...nearly £30k odd...ohhh looks like I have a choice in that price bracket for a fast 2+2 car which will both be 3 years old (with seats that can be reasonably used by adults or kids who have outgrown the 911)

Edited by steve singh on Friday 15th October 12:45

Exactly what I read in your post right from the start. And exactly what the defensive on here completely forget, which is completely in tune with the title of this thread!

[christer]

bcnrml said:

[ I expect it has sold many more than that in China and the US where sales are roaring ahead. Indeed, Mercedes is the biggest premium brand for cars in China and sold over 100k cars in that maket by September 2010 alone.

Edited by bcnrml on Friday 15th October 12:14

from WSJ:

BEIJING (Dow Jones)--German vehicle maker Daimler AG's (DAI.XE) Mercedes-Benz Cars unit said Monday it sold over 13,940 vehicles in China in September, up 114% from a year earlier, as its S-Class vehicles logged strong sales growth.

Sales for the January-September period totaled more than 101,350 units, up 129% from a year earlier, Mercedes-Benz said, without giving year-earlier figures.


and (MB themselves):

All Mercedes-Benz model series posted record sales in China during the first quarter of 2010. Sales of the E-Class, the C-Class, and the SUVs grew at double-digit rates. A total of 5,400 C-Class sedans were handed over to customers, while 6,400 customers bought an E-Class sedan, and 5,300 SUVs were delivered. The development was particularly favorable for the S-Class, for which China is now the world’s largest sales market, accounting for 3,700 units from January through March. The R-Class is also very popular in China, and around 7,000 B-Class cars have been sold in the country since the vehicle was launched there in early 2009. Some 2,200 customers have bought a smart fortwo since the car was introduced on the market in April 2009. Mercedes-Benz now offers 14 model ranges with a total of 52 different models in China. The sales network includes more than 140 dealerships and is being substantially expanded in order to support the brand’s growth on the Chinese market.


Looks like the Chinese have a penchant for S-classes - a model that has decades of history and evolution.

[RichB]

steve singh said:

Henry-F said:

And on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW? Henry

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

My point being at the point of 3 years down the line the Panamera is forecast to be worth £30k odd (as per Mike @ sports and classic) and the M3 3 years down the line is worth....wait for it...nearly £30k odd...ohhh looks like I have a choice in that price bracket for a fast 2+2 car which will both be 3 years old (with seats that can be reasonably used by adults or kids who have outgrown the 911)

This chap suggested a 3 year old Panamera or a diseasel Beemer

FlybyWyre said:

I have no need for a lux 4/5 seater but if I did, major preference over the MB S.
Not trying to be a kill-joy but loads of markets hate hatchbacks. Not good in extreme cold or hot climates, and I'm guessing that's where the money is.
Just a thought. Could explain that 3 year figure.
A 3 year old Panamera or a new 3 series 3 litre diesel?
I wonder.

That is what I found laughable.

[randlemarcus]

RichB said:

steve singh said:

Henry-F said:

And on the subject of competition did someone suggest a 3 series BMW? Henry

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

My point being at the point of 3 years down the line the Panamera is forecast to be worth £30k odd (as per Mike @ sports and classic) and the M3 3 years down the line is worth....wait for it...nearly £30k odd...ohhh looks like I have a choice in that price bracket for a fast 2+2 car which will both be 3 years old (with seats that can be reasonably used by adults or kids who have outgrown the 911)

This chap suggested a 3 year old Panamera or a diseasel Beemer

FlybyWyre said:

I have no need for a lux 4/5 seater but if I did, major preference over the MB S.
Not trying to be a kill-joy but loads of markets hate hatchbacks. Not good in extreme cold or hot climates, and I'm guessing that's where the money is.
Just a thought. Could explain that 3 year figure.
A 3 year old Panamera or a new 3 series 3 litre diesel?
I wonder.

That is what I found laughable.

To be fair to the poster above, its a comparison to be made in three years time. £30k for a factory fresh BMW, or a three year old Panam. Same choice as a few people make today, with similar car choices.

[RichB]

I just can't see anyone considering a Diesel BMW saloon would also think about a big lumpy Panamera but then I not fussed about the Panamera and I don't like diesel, horrible smelly stuff

[Henry-F]

steve singh said:

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

It was more aimed at the older post of the 3 series diesel but I do think even an M3 is going to have to work extremely hard to keep up with the pack. Driving a Panam is a real treat, (I probably wouldn't buy a V6 - the turbo was just divine but as has already been said does come at a price), and I feel that whilst the M3 may manage to hit some of the headline figures it will never offer that all enveloping feeling of completeness that comes with the Panamera or other comparable cars.

Cars are an immensity subjective topic, like food. What hits the spot for you doesn't for me and visa versa. As with a fine dining experience, cost will also play a part. If the Porsche is too expensive then even if you can technically afford to write the cheque out the full cost of ownership will erode your ownership experience too much. Everyone has a pain threshold when it comes to money and with cars (or food) people have different priorities. To some a car is their whole life, to others it gets them from one place to another.

Henry

[steve singh]

Henry-F said:

steve singh said:

I hope that wasn't pointed at me, there's a big difference between a £50k M3 and a 318...you may want to go back and re-read

It was more aimed at the older post of the 3 series diesel but I do think even an M3 is going to have to work extremely hard to keep up with the pack. Driving a Panam is a real treat, (I probably wouldn't buy a V6 - the turbo was just divine but as has already been said does come at a price), and I feel that whilst the M3 may manage to hit some of the headline figures it will never offer that all enveloping feeling of completeness that comes with the Panamera or other comparable cars.

Cars are an immensity subjective topic, like food. What hits the spot for you doesn't for me and visa versa. As with a fine dining experience, cost will also play a part. If the Porsche is too expensive then even if you can technically afford to write the cheque out the full cost of ownership will erode your ownership experience too much. Everyone has a pain threshold when it comes to money and with cars (or food) people have different priorities. To some a car is their whole life, to others it gets them from one place to another.

Henry

I disagree that the M3 is not every bit as good, if not better, than the Panamera - more so once the Panny gets hit with engine reliability issues like most other Porsches seem to (aside from the GTx/turbos - not sure what engine block is for the Panny but Porsche do have a habit of messing this up).

However your 2nd para hits the nail on the head - it's individual choice with a value trade-off between price/depreciation/running costs vs. perceived value from ownership.

[Henry-F]

To be fair I would say BMW have had their share of gremlins too so I'm not sure I'd see them as whiter than white. I think I'm correct in saying the approved warranty is a chunk of change as well. When we bought new we simply played the game and kept up payments on the warranty so if anything went wrong we were covered. As first owner I think you have a bit of extra weight behind you as well.

Once second hand it's a different call but as we discovering you do save a few quid

Henry

[IMI A]

sportsandclassic said:

A friend of mine has bought a £130K panamera turbo and they have put a residual of £33K !

Thats the guaranteed residual and the finance companies have set these final residual figures much lower since the credit crunch as punters were just chucking cars back at them.

In reality a 3 year old turbo with 30k miles is going to cost £65k. 50% depreciation for this sort of car after three years is tremendous. Only Porsche achieve these sort of residuals