Drop in BHP due to Carbon Build up - Gen 2 997?
Discussion
Mouser73 said:
Steve,
As I said in my last post, I'm not here to sell anything. I see you're still having trouble with that one.
I've met people like you on many car forums and a few years ago your petty vindictiveness would have bothered me.
Now I just see it for what it is.
Posting on forums us not a pissing contest for intellectual wannabes. It's an environment where hopefully people can discuss various issues without the inconvenience of being trolled.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that away from your keyboard you're a nice guy who's prone to a bit of post work angst.
However, I don't deserve your crap and appeasing you is pretty low on my list of priorities.
This is where you apologise and we start again.
I doubt he needs to apologise (and I darseay he can defend himself). Your subsequent posts are avoiding the issues raised of your first one on this thread.As I said in my last post, I'm not here to sell anything. I see you're still having trouble with that one.
I've met people like you on many car forums and a few years ago your petty vindictiveness would have bothered me.
Now I just see it for what it is.
Posting on forums us not a pissing contest for intellectual wannabes. It's an environment where hopefully people can discuss various issues without the inconvenience of being trolled.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that away from your keyboard you're a nice guy who's prone to a bit of post work angst.
However, I don't deserve your crap and appeasing you is pretty low on my list of priorities.
This is where you apologise and we start again.
All anyone on here wants is evidence. You've been made an offer you surely cannot refuse. Why not take it up? It'd cost you far less than the advertising you refer to, and get you loads of revenue generating respect.
In fact, I'd urge you to be very careful not to try to drive this thread off-topic. You may also wish to be very careful with your tone. I know of at least four purveyors of products who piled into useful threads in this forum and who left with their tails between their legs. Your posts remind me of the early stages of a certain Tonylal thread......
Edited by bcnrml on Tuesday 30th November 17:25
Bcnrml,
I agree with what you are saying.
First of all I didn't come into this thread to get into a product debate. Cars are an interest and 99% of the time I keep work and hobbies separate.
In hindsight I wish I'd just posted an opinion rather than posting links. It just seemed to be the simplest way of getting the information into the discussion. All I was trying to achieve was to contribute something positive to a thread which I had followed for a while.
However, Steve's comments were purposely offensive and I don't think it's asking too much to expect some degree of cordiality.
With regard to product testing. I said that I would post test data when I receive it. I also take on your point about straying too far off topic. I hate conflict but will always defend myself.
Ian, I'm really sorry I missed The last part of you post regarding a sample. Please email me you address and I'll send you some out.
I will also send you a copy of the test data.
Cheers,
James.
I agree with what you are saying.
First of all I didn't come into this thread to get into a product debate. Cars are an interest and 99% of the time I keep work and hobbies separate.
In hindsight I wish I'd just posted an opinion rather than posting links. It just seemed to be the simplest way of getting the information into the discussion. All I was trying to achieve was to contribute something positive to a thread which I had followed for a while.
However, Steve's comments were purposely offensive and I don't think it's asking too much to expect some degree of cordiality.
With regard to product testing. I said that I would post test data when I receive it. I also take on your point about straying too far off topic. I hate conflict but will always defend myself.
Ian, I'm really sorry I missed The last part of you post regarding a sample. Please email me you address and I'll send you some out.
I will also send you a copy of the test data.
Cheers,
James.
Mouser73 said:
Stuff
I absolutely don't need to apologise and you only need to look at all my other posts to understand my internet persona is contrary to what you suggest. Thankfully most in this forum know this already. Look back at how you've come across - first post talks / shares links into products that you sell, you've not discussed anything to do with cars beyond this thread, you've not even bothered to fill in your profile so that we can see what car you own, you've kept all your posts concentrated within one thread to an issue which you can see financial gain and you've been extremely evasive on answering the OPs request to test your product (which if you sell you must obviously have strong faith in - otherwise that would be immoral?).
I don't want to drive this thread off-topic, as it's extraordinarily valuable, and as such I think we should agree to disagree and focus on the issue in hand.
Your offer to post up test data is extremely kind and that's the kind of constructive posts / views we need.
Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 1st December 10:25
steve singh said:
Mouser73 said:
Stuff
I absolutely don't need to apologise and you only need to look at all my other posts to understand my internet persona is contrary to what you suggest. Thankfully most in this forum know this already. Look back at how you've come across - first post talks / shares links into products that you sell, you've not discussed anything to do with cars beyond this thread, you've not even bothered to fill in your profile so that we can see what car you own, you've kept all your posts concentrated within one thread to an issue which you can see financial gain and you've been extremely evasive on answering the OPs request to test your product (which if you sell you must obviously have strong faith in - otherwise that would be immoral?).
I don't want to drive this thread off-topic, as it's extraordinarily valuable, and as such I think we should agree to disagree and focus on the issue in hand.
Your offer to post up test data is extremely kind and that's the kind of constructive posts / views we need.
Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 1st December 10:25
And as for not putting his cars in his profile...you haven't even bothered to create a garage!
As promised, here are 'some' test results and information on the Wynn's DIP3/EGR3 cleaners.
DIP3 is the direct injection petrol cleaner. Egr3 is the diesel version.
These products were designed predomiantly to clean/lubricate the EGR system and inlet tract.
most of the information we have is for diesel engines, for the simple reason that direct injection diesel engines have been around longer and there are considerably more of them. Additionally, particulate transfer from combustion is greater in diesels.
All Wynn's testing was done at the Belgian Technology Institute De Nayer, at Hyundai belgium, at Mitsubishi Belgium, at Franchises or at Wynn's.
As you may have guessed, Wynn's Europe is based in Belgium!
First of all, we all know some of the advantage of modern direct injection engines; better fuel consumption and more power. Below is a slightly longer explanation, but worth reading just the same...
from Wiki;
"By virtue of better dispersion and homogeneity of the directly injected fuel, the cylinder and piston are cooled, thereby permitting higher compression ratios and more aggressive ignition timing, with resultant enhanced power output. More precise management of the fuel injection event also enables better control of emissions. Finally, the homogeneity of the fuel mixture allows for leaner air/fuel ratios, which together with more precise ignition timing can improve fuel efficiency. Along with this, the engine can operate with stratified (lean burn) mixtures, and hence avoid throttling losses at low and part engine load. Some direct-injection systems incorporate piezoelectronic fuel injectors. With their extremely fast response time, multiple injection events can occur during each cycle of each cylinder of the engine."
Unfortunately, finer tolerances, higher pressures and recirculated gases from the EGR system can also result in poor running and loss of power.
This thread is obviously concerned with clogged inlet tracts and inlet valves.
Without fuel wash past the inlet valves, a degree of carbon/sludge build-up is inevitable. However, the extent of this will vary depending on;
Type of fuel system/engine - how the car is driven - type of fuel used.
Here are some test results for the petrol products (including direct injection liquid - tank injector cleaner);
http://www.wynns.net/product_files/direct%20inject...
The pictures that look like the moon landing are actually injector nozzles at very high magnification. As you can see, each injector apeture is tiny. Deposits will disturb injector spray patten which may lead to poor running.
Martian O, you mentioned having problems with your Mitsubishi GDi engine a few years back. I spoke with the technical dirctor of Wynn's today. He said that Mitsubishi were considering stopping the import of this engine into Belgium because of the issues you described.
Wynn's worked with Mitsubishi and now they use the DIP3 product on regular servicing (15K intervals) to prevent coking. It has been very sucessful.
Additionally, in the UK Wynn's have approval from the AA for the diesel product (EGR3). They found that a considerable percentage of engine related breakdowns were EGR related.
Here are some test results for the diesel product;
Volkswagen Bora 1.9TDi
Before After Change
Engine power in HP 115.4 118.7 3.3
Engine torque in Nm 271.9 276.6 4.7
Here's the rest;
http://www.wynns.net/product_files/Exhaust%20Gas%2...
I hope this has been of some interest. I have some really good valve pics, but cannot figure out how to post them here.
Finally, whilst discussing DI issue with the Wynn's technical director. It was his opinion that it is the manner in which the vehicle is driven is of great importance.
Cheers,
James.
DIP3 is the direct injection petrol cleaner. Egr3 is the diesel version.
These products were designed predomiantly to clean/lubricate the EGR system and inlet tract.
most of the information we have is for diesel engines, for the simple reason that direct injection diesel engines have been around longer and there are considerably more of them. Additionally, particulate transfer from combustion is greater in diesels.
All Wynn's testing was done at the Belgian Technology Institute De Nayer, at Hyundai belgium, at Mitsubishi Belgium, at Franchises or at Wynn's.
As you may have guessed, Wynn's Europe is based in Belgium!
First of all, we all know some of the advantage of modern direct injection engines; better fuel consumption and more power. Below is a slightly longer explanation, but worth reading just the same...
from Wiki;
"By virtue of better dispersion and homogeneity of the directly injected fuel, the cylinder and piston are cooled, thereby permitting higher compression ratios and more aggressive ignition timing, with resultant enhanced power output. More precise management of the fuel injection event also enables better control of emissions. Finally, the homogeneity of the fuel mixture allows for leaner air/fuel ratios, which together with more precise ignition timing can improve fuel efficiency. Along with this, the engine can operate with stratified (lean burn) mixtures, and hence avoid throttling losses at low and part engine load. Some direct-injection systems incorporate piezoelectronic fuel injectors. With their extremely fast response time, multiple injection events can occur during each cycle of each cylinder of the engine."
Unfortunately, finer tolerances, higher pressures and recirculated gases from the EGR system can also result in poor running and loss of power.
This thread is obviously concerned with clogged inlet tracts and inlet valves.
Without fuel wash past the inlet valves, a degree of carbon/sludge build-up is inevitable. However, the extent of this will vary depending on;
Type of fuel system/engine - how the car is driven - type of fuel used.
Here are some test results for the petrol products (including direct injection liquid - tank injector cleaner);
http://www.wynns.net/product_files/direct%20inject...
The pictures that look like the moon landing are actually injector nozzles at very high magnification. As you can see, each injector apeture is tiny. Deposits will disturb injector spray patten which may lead to poor running.
Martian O, you mentioned having problems with your Mitsubishi GDi engine a few years back. I spoke with the technical dirctor of Wynn's today. He said that Mitsubishi were considering stopping the import of this engine into Belgium because of the issues you described.
Wynn's worked with Mitsubishi and now they use the DIP3 product on regular servicing (15K intervals) to prevent coking. It has been very sucessful.
Additionally, in the UK Wynn's have approval from the AA for the diesel product (EGR3). They found that a considerable percentage of engine related breakdowns were EGR related.
Here are some test results for the diesel product;
Volkswagen Bora 1.9TDi
Before After Change
Engine power in HP 115.4 118.7 3.3
Engine torque in Nm 271.9 276.6 4.7
Here's the rest;
http://www.wynns.net/product_files/Exhaust%20Gas%2...
I hope this has been of some interest. I have some really good valve pics, but cannot figure out how to post them here.
Finally, whilst discussing DI issue with the Wynn's technical director. It was his opinion that it is the manner in which the vehicle is driven is of great importance.
Cheers,
James.
Edited by Mouser73 on Thursday 2nd December 16:37
Ian_UK1 said:
Just a quick update - my car is finally going for the borescope examination on Wednsday afternoon so we'll hopefully get to see what a 9500-mile, untreated (as in no petrochemical products used to remove the carbon) DFI 997S's inlet valves look like.
For the record, my car has been run on V-Power from new and had a precautionary oil change at 4000 miles (post running-in) so it should be in as good condition, carbon-wise, as any could be expected to be at 9500 miles.
Assuming there is some degree of carbon build-up (as it's likely there will be on a DFI motor) perhaps Wynns would like to use their product to 'treat' my car and we can then assess the results with a second borescope examination? Nothing like 'money where mouth is' to prove product claims. Over to Wynns.......
Ian
Good or bad news Ian?For the record, my car has been run on V-Power from new and had a precautionary oil change at 4000 miles (post running-in) so it should be in as good condition, carbon-wise, as any could be expected to be at 9500 miles.
Assuming there is some degree of carbon build-up (as it's likely there will be on a DFI motor) perhaps Wynns would like to use their product to 'treat' my car and we can then assess the results with a second borescope examination? Nothing like 'money where mouth is' to prove product claims. Over to Wynns.......
Ian
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 29th November 10:31
Hi again
I'm still working on this. I finally got to the indie that's helping me with the project last week and we immediately ran into a problem. It turned-out the Snap-On borescope they have isn't going to do the job by itself. Firstly, it also doesn't allow for direct image capture (something I was aware of) so the only way to capture images to post on here will be to photograph what's on the borescope's built-in screen. No problem, I thought - until I saw the borescope! It turns out to have a screen that is smaller than the one you'll find on a typical smart phone.
As the borescope screen is far too small to photograph with any clarity, I'm having to find a way to get a bigger picture to take images from. Thankfully, the borescope has one of those yellow, phono-style, video-out jacks, so hopefully connecting it to a monitor with the necessary video-in socket **should** display a much bigger image - one I'll be able to photograph clearly and post here for everyone to see.
Some ferreting-around over the weekend has unearthed a suitable monitor, but the whole thing isn't a simple 5-minute job any more. We're going to have to get the borescope to communicate with the monitor and then mess around until we've got an image on screen large and clear enough to photograph. I'm therefore having to wait until the guys who own the indie have a couple of spare hours to devote to this. As they're mad busy due to the effects of weather on people's cars and this borescope examination is (understandably) at the bottom of their priority list, it may take a few more days yet.
Ian
I'm still working on this. I finally got to the indie that's helping me with the project last week and we immediately ran into a problem. It turned-out the Snap-On borescope they have isn't going to do the job by itself. Firstly, it also doesn't allow for direct image capture (something I was aware of) so the only way to capture images to post on here will be to photograph what's on the borescope's built-in screen. No problem, I thought - until I saw the borescope! It turns out to have a screen that is smaller than the one you'll find on a typical smart phone.
As the borescope screen is far too small to photograph with any clarity, I'm having to find a way to get a bigger picture to take images from. Thankfully, the borescope has one of those yellow, phono-style, video-out jacks, so hopefully connecting it to a monitor with the necessary video-in socket **should** display a much bigger image - one I'll be able to photograph clearly and post here for everyone to see.
Some ferreting-around over the weekend has unearthed a suitable monitor, but the whole thing isn't a simple 5-minute job any more. We're going to have to get the borescope to communicate with the monitor and then mess around until we've got an image on screen large and clear enough to photograph. I'm therefore having to wait until the guys who own the indie have a couple of spare hours to devote to this. As they're mad busy due to the effects of weather on people's cars and this borescope examination is (understandably) at the bottom of their priority list, it may take a few more days yet.
Ian
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Monday 6th December 10:33
Ian - you also may find this 335i DFI strip down of interest.....
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464...
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464...
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