Chris Harris' 997.1 GT3 with exe-tc Suspension and Akrapovic
Discussion
mrdemon said:
cannot be worth much now its been pissed about with and put back to standard, 50k ?
I suppose that's the thing when buying (and even buying through OPC) - how do you know what modifications the car has had in the past? (and then been reverted back to original spec)I think many (probably including myself if I'm honest) picture OPC cars as being the purest of the pure, 'untouched virgins' in the murky world of used cars that are pristine in every respect, when that may not always be the case.
(note: the above comments not directed at the car in question, just more a general comment)
Opens can of worms...
Apart from engine mods (which would presumably result in a rejection from OPC to buy the car) who cares if someone thought powder coat wheels or a different rear wing, even different dampers/springs for a time, if it's put back to standard before sale.
If anything it means the undercarriage gets looked at a bit closer than it otherwise would have.
I can appreciate the principle of it having been modified and restored to original spec might be less than ideal but in real terms, I strongly doubt any negative side effects unless it's had drivetrain/ecu/cooling mods.
I would suspect a standard car that's done 10k mainly track miles vs. a car with 10k road miles and had an akrapovik exhaust fitted for 8k of them will be in better condition all round but which is the 'better' car?
As ever, buy on condition and resale factors
Apart from engine mods (which would presumably result in a rejection from OPC to buy the car) who cares if someone thought powder coat wheels or a different rear wing, even different dampers/springs for a time, if it's put back to standard before sale.
If anything it means the undercarriage gets looked at a bit closer than it otherwise would have.
I can appreciate the principle of it having been modified and restored to original spec might be less than ideal but in real terms, I strongly doubt any negative side effects unless it's had drivetrain/ecu/cooling mods.
I would suspect a standard car that's done 10k mainly track miles vs. a car with 10k road miles and had an akrapovik exhaust fitted for 8k of them will be in better condition all round but which is the 'better' car?
As ever, buy on condition and resale factors
I'd like to comment that part: "Chris reckons that some 80+kg has been cut from the weight of the car with the addition of the exhaust and bucket seats alone!"
I made same mods lately. Orig seats were 23 kg's each, new GT3 replica carbon ones 8 kg (including new side plates and etc). Saving 46 - 16 = 30 Kg.
GT3 exhaust is pretty heavy. Cat-back weight is 30 Kg. I left orig headers and orig cats to comply OBD2 check engine. New part is lightweight 7 Kg piece. Pictures here: http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/fabrication-of-91... Weight saving from exhaust was 20 Kg-s.
So, total weight saving is 50 Kg. I admire and respect Chris (last time saw in Nürburgring World Cup and 24h race) but really don't by that 80+ Kg story.
I made same mods lately. Orig seats were 23 kg's each, new GT3 replica carbon ones 8 kg (including new side plates and etc). Saving 46 - 16 = 30 Kg.
GT3 exhaust is pretty heavy. Cat-back weight is 30 Kg. I left orig headers and orig cats to comply OBD2 check engine. New part is lightweight 7 Kg piece. Pictures here: http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/fabrication-of-91... Weight saving from exhaust was 20 Kg-s.
So, total weight saving is 50 Kg. I admire and respect Chris (last time saw in Nürburgring World Cup and 24h race) but really don't by that 80+ Kg story.
Slippydiff said:
Exe-TC is top quality stuff. Citroen has used it on every one of Sebastian Loebs cars to win his WRC titles.
They were also used by Prodrive on their WRC Imprezas.
IIIRC Graham (the genius behind Exe-TC) has started to diversify into circuit (rather than rally) dampers more recently.
Costs start at around the £5K mark for GT3 kit IIRC.
For the same money (or a smidge more) you could go with these :
http://www.easier.com/81429-ohlins-porsche-997-gt3...
Ohlins are about as good as it gets in the world of dampers.
I first came across Exe-TC when I was a senior race engineer at Prodrive back in 1997. We tested them first on the Honda BTCC Touring Cars after they offered a free test and they proved to be fractionally quicker than the Penske dampers we used at the time. Their basic philosophy was to run loads of low speed bump and very little rebound, almost the exact opposite of a conventional valved damper. I remember the owner was a chap called Graham Gleason, an ex bike racer turned entrepreneur. As you say they ended up on the WRC Subaru shortly afterwards.They were also used by Prodrive on their WRC Imprezas.
IIIRC Graham (the genius behind Exe-TC) has started to diversify into circuit (rather than rally) dampers more recently.
Costs start at around the £5K mark for GT3 kit IIRC.
For the same money (or a smidge more) you could go with these :
http://www.easier.com/81429-ohlins-porsche-997-gt3...
Ohlins are about as good as it gets in the world of dampers.
uktrailmonster said:
I first came across Exe-TC when I was a senior race engineer at Prodrive back in 1997. We tested them first on the Honda BTCC Touring Cars after they offered a free test and they proved to be fractionally quicker than the Penske dampers we used at the time. Their basic philosophy was to run loads of low speed bump and very little rebound, almost the exact opposite of a conventional valved damper. I remember the owner was a chap called Graham Gleason, an ex bike racer turned entrepreneur. As you say they ended up on the WRC Subaru shortly afterwards.
Hi uktm,Indeed Graham's the main man. He's studiously avoided getting involved in roadgoing kit to date (so I think CH must have been a favoured customer having been involved in the development of the Exe-TC dampers for his early 911 ST rep with Tuthills) though I'm sure the extra publicity generated by fitting the Exe-TCs to a 997 GT3 didn't would've been beneficial !
As I understood it the Prodrive/Subaru WRC team tried just about every damper out there ! Firstly Bilsteins, then Prodrive modified Bilsteins, then Reigers, then Exe-TC (who Prodrive wanted to have an exclusive deal with, but Exe-TC refused as I understand it) then possibly Ohlins and finally Sachs !
I'd love for someone to do a Slippydiff-length post about options for the 996 GT3s.
One day mine (a mk1) is going to need new suspension and it'd be great to understand some of the options. I liked the sound of the Exe-TCs on Chris Harris's 997; soaked up bumps on the road but still handled incredibly when necessary. Do they do a set-up for the older cars?
Anyone got any links to some good write-ups?
One day mine (a mk1) is going to need new suspension and it'd be great to understand some of the options. I liked the sound of the Exe-TCs on Chris Harris's 997; soaked up bumps on the road but still handled incredibly when necessary. Do they do a set-up for the older cars?
Anyone got any links to some good write-ups?
Jackgreen said:
I'd like to comment that part: "Chris reckons that some 80+kg has been cut from the weight of the car with the addition of the exhaust and bucket seats alone!"
I made same mods lately. Orig seats were 23 kg's each, new GT3 replica carbon ones 8 kg (including new side plates and etc). Saving 46 - 16 = 30 Kg.
GT3 exhaust is pretty heavy. Cat-back weight is 30 Kg. I left orig headers and orig cats to comply OBD2 check engine. New part is lightweight 7 Kg piece. Pictures here: http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/fabrication-of-91... Weight saving from exhaust was 20 Kg-s.
So, total weight saving is 50 Kg. I admire and respect Chris (last time saw in Nürburgring World Cup and 24h race) but really don't by that 80+ Kg story.
So did you leave the kidney-shaped cats in place on your conversion, or remove them completely? I made same mods lately. Orig seats were 23 kg's each, new GT3 replica carbon ones 8 kg (including new side plates and etc). Saving 46 - 16 = 30 Kg.
GT3 exhaust is pretty heavy. Cat-back weight is 30 Kg. I left orig headers and orig cats to comply OBD2 check engine. New part is lightweight 7 Kg piece. Pictures here: http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/fabrication-of-91... Weight saving from exhaust was 20 Kg-s.
So, total weight saving is 50 Kg. I admire and respect Chris (last time saw in Nürburgring World Cup and 24h race) but really don't by that 80+ Kg story.
Jackwood
GT3 has integrated headers/cats. Primary silencers and center silencer. I left orig headers-cat systems (pos 2 on the diagram, linked below). But cats are not kidney-shaped. I believe You meant primary silencers.
Here's the schema: Red parts are replaced with Adlerflow GT3 track exhaust.
http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/porsche-911-997-g...
GT3 has integrated headers/cats. Primary silencers and center silencer. I left orig headers-cat systems (pos 2 on the diagram, linked below). But cats are not kidney-shaped. I believe You meant primary silencers.
Here's the schema: Red parts are replaced with Adlerflow GT3 track exhaust.
http://www.adlerflow.com/2011/07/porsche-911-997-g...
Slippydiff said:
uktrailmonster said:
I first came across Exe-TC when I was a senior race engineer at Prodrive back in 1997. We tested them first on the Honda BTCC Touring Cars after they offered a free test and they proved to be fractionally quicker than the Penske dampers we used at the time. Their basic philosophy was to run loads of low speed bump and very little rebound, almost the exact opposite of a conventional valved damper. I remember the owner was a chap called Graham Gleason, an ex bike racer turned entrepreneur. As you say they ended up on the WRC Subaru shortly afterwards.
Hi uktm,Indeed Graham's the main man. He's studiously avoided getting involved in roadgoing kit to date (so I think CH must have been a favoured customer having been involved in the development of the Exe-TC dampers for his early 911 ST rep with Tuthills) though I'm sure the extra publicity generated by fitting the Exe-TCs to a 997 GT3 didn't would've been beneficial !
As I understood it the Prodrive/Subaru WRC team tried just about every damper out there ! Firstly Bilsteins, then Prodrive modified Bilsteins, then Reigers, then Exe-TC (who Prodrive wanted to have an exclusive deal with, but Exe-TC refused as I understand it) then possibly Ohlins and finally Sachs !
1/ Standard Bilsteins are actually very good and very consistent. A true fit and forget quality damper, but obviously you need to match the valving to your particular make/model of car and type of use.
2/ Konis are pretty good too and offer probably the most user friendly and consistent adjustable damping on the market. But you really need to know what you're doing when playing with adjustable dampers and 99% of people don't.
3/ Ohlins are very good if you have the wonga, but probably not worth the expense in most cases
4/ Pretty CNC machining and funky anodising do not necessarily make a good damper, just an expensive one.
5/ Anyone who claims that dampers are worth more than a few tenths of a second per lap are lying or don't know what they're talking about (unless the reference point is a totally shagged set of dampers or something ridiculously stiff)
6/ Run as little damping as you can get away with. If in doubt run a bit less. If the whole thing feels way too soft it needs stiffer springs i.e. never try to use dampers as springs.
uktrailmonster said:
Race teams with large budgets routinely test all makes of dampers and often make their own modifications along the way. I've personally been involved in testing just about every make and spec of damper in the known universe (through BTCC, Rally and F1) and here's a summary of my experience over the last 18 years or so:-
1/ Standard Bilsteins are actually very good and very consistent. A true fit and forget quality damper, but obviously you need to match the valving to your particular make/model of car and type of use.
2/ Konis are pretty good too and offer probably the most user friendly and consistent adjustable damping on the market. But you really need to know what you're doing when playing with adjustable dampers and 99% of people don't.
3/ Ohlins are very good if you have the wonga, but probably not worth the expense in most cases
4/ Pretty CNC machining and funky anodising do not necessarily make a good damper, just an expensive one.
5/ Anyone who claims that dampers are worth more than a few tenths of a second per lap are lying or don't know what they're talking about (unless the reference point is a totally shagged set of dampers or something ridiculously stiff)
6/ Run as little damping as you can get away with. If in doubt run a bit less. If the whole thing feels way too soft it needs stiffer springs i.e. never try to use dampers as springs.
What are your thoughts on KW if you don't mind me asking?1/ Standard Bilsteins are actually very good and very consistent. A true fit and forget quality damper, but obviously you need to match the valving to your particular make/model of car and type of use.
2/ Konis are pretty good too and offer probably the most user friendly and consistent adjustable damping on the market. But you really need to know what you're doing when playing with adjustable dampers and 99% of people don't.
3/ Ohlins are very good if you have the wonga, but probably not worth the expense in most cases
4/ Pretty CNC machining and funky anodising do not necessarily make a good damper, just an expensive one.
5/ Anyone who claims that dampers are worth more than a few tenths of a second per lap are lying or don't know what they're talking about (unless the reference point is a totally shagged set of dampers or something ridiculously stiff)
6/ Run as little damping as you can get away with. If in doubt run a bit less. If the whole thing feels way too soft it needs stiffer springs i.e. never try to use dampers as springs.
SlowlnFastOut said:
What are your thoughts on KW if you don't mind me asking?
Never used them in racing so can't really comment. Their website explanation of CofG 'movements' is technically incorrect but probably written by someone without a formal engineering background trying to explain what happens in layman's terms. I'm not a big fan of adjustable dampers in general to be honest. When tested on a damper dyno they nearly always show inconsistent damping rates for a particular setting, sometimes many clicks different on a supposedly identical pair. You can get away with that on race cars by mapping the settings on individual dampers against their specific dyno profile, but that is definitely not for the home tuner! I'd stick to Bilsteins personally, they may look a bit low-tech on the outside but the internals are proven and very effective. a former TTE employee said:
Race/rally teams with large budgets routinely waste huge amounts of money because they can. They test all makes of dampers and often make their own modifications along the way, often to no avail.A certain Banbury based team seem very adept at this. Their foray into Sachs dampers on the Impreza WRC cars being on object lesson in how to make an already slow car, slower still . . .
uktrailmonster said:
4/ Pretty CNC machining and funky anodising do not necessarily make a good damper, just an expensive one.
I couldn't agree more, a certain UK based "manufacturer" has made dampers almost an objet d'art. Strangely enough you don't see them on many (if any) Porsche race cars though . . . Slippydiff said:
Interesting that the OP didn't like the 997 GT3 gearshift, I HATED mine, its weighting was so out of sorts with the weight of the other control surfaces that it was very noticeable, around town it felt heavy, baulky and obstructive. Only when driving the car flat out did it's weighting feel correct.
I subsequently drove an identical car at 911 Virgin which was "better" but not brilliant, I then drove another identical car at Bristol Porsche centre and the gearshift was the polar opposite, light but positive and silky smooth.
I'd be interested to hear what other 997 GT3 Gen 1 and RS owners think of their gearshift quality.
It'll be interesting to see if this car is a keeper for Chris, he does seem to get "bored" fairly quickly, whether he'll nullify that by spending copious amounts on trick bits for it remains to be seen !
I can't say I'm surprised by the weight loss, the standard 996 GT2 exhaust weighs 48kgs ! The comfort seats in the 997 GT3 are proper "armchairs".
Chris had Exe TC dampers on his Tuthill built ST, is this now your car wtdoom ?
sorry just seen this .I subsequently drove an identical car at 911 Virgin which was "better" but not brilliant, I then drove another identical car at Bristol Porsche centre and the gearshift was the polar opposite, light but positive and silky smooth.
I'd be interested to hear what other 997 GT3 Gen 1 and RS owners think of their gearshift quality.
It'll be interesting to see if this car is a keeper for Chris, he does seem to get "bored" fairly quickly, whether he'll nullify that by spending copious amounts on trick bits for it remains to be seen !
I can't say I'm surprised by the weight loss, the standard 996 GT2 exhaust weighs 48kgs ! The comfort seats in the 997 GT3 are proper "armchairs".
Chris had Exe TC dampers on his Tuthill built ST, is this now your car wtdoom ?
no mine is a period car that i rebuilt to fia spec now softened for use on the road . one of the mags ( 911 and porsche ?) drove it and called something along the lines of the best old pork they drove . i put that down to tuthil and exe tc magic .
V8KSN said:
Hi all, sorry to resurrect an old thread.
Does anyone know who owns this ex-Harris GT3?
I am thinking of upgrading the suspension of my 997.1 GT3 and I would like to speak to the owner of this car.
Kind regards
I have the same suspension on my 911 ST . Anything I can help with , ask away . Or , even better talk to Richard Tuthil he build Chris's green car and my ST.Does anyone know who owns this ex-Harris GT3?
I am thinking of upgrading the suspension of my 997.1 GT3 and I would like to speak to the owner of this car.
Kind regards
He is currently preparing my RSR and the suspension has moved on even more now .
Hope this helps .
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