Discussion
Hi All
Spent an hour watching various youtube vids of Nurburgring...various cars (watch the one of the fastest lap in Radical SR8 for ultimate jaw-dropper!). One thing that really was noticable is how NOT driftable TIVs are (Tuscan, T350, Griff all included). When the back starts to go there seems to be no way back...car swaps ends *almost* without warning and seemingly with little chance to catch it. Normally induced by trailing corner braking or throttle application out of corner.
Why so black-and-white ???? What could be done to make the thing more progressive ???
You can watch BMW after BMW (from 320 touring to M3s all happily wagging their back ends with impunity...big heavy lumps with lots of torque but ready to drift in the hands of seemingly anyone)
Spent an hour watching various youtube vids of Nurburgring...various cars (watch the one of the fastest lap in Radical SR8 for ultimate jaw-dropper!). One thing that really was noticable is how NOT driftable TIVs are (Tuscan, T350, Griff all included). When the back starts to go there seems to be no way back...car swaps ends *almost* without warning and seemingly with little chance to catch it. Normally induced by trailing corner braking or throttle application out of corner.
Why so black-and-white ???? What could be done to make the thing more progressive ???
You can watch BMW after BMW (from 320 touring to M3s all happily wagging their back ends with impunity...big heavy lumps with lots of torque but ready to drift in the hands of seemingly anyone)
Don't know about the Cerb & 'T' cars, but the Griff in my limited experience can be drifted & recovered from. Think it's to do with the more forgiving tyre sidewalls possibly. The 18" spiders have much lower profile tyres & possibly less compliant sidewalls giving a much less progressive breakaway?
http://youtu.be/__trOVKHwcs?t=1m25s
http://youtu.be/__trOVKHwcs?t=1m25s
I guess the other cars had traction control.
Did anyone watch that video of the Elise which was modified so it could drift? Was quite interesting. The Elise is known to be very hard to catch when you lose the rear end, but with smaller wheels, increased tyre walls and softened suspension it was apparently very easy and fun to drift.
Did anyone watch that video of the Elise which was modified so it could drift? Was quite interesting. The Elise is known to be very hard to catch when you lose the rear end, but with smaller wheels, increased tyre walls and softened suspension it was apparently very easy and fun to drift.
Edited by Cockey on Saturday 8th November 13:20
griffdude said:
Don't know about the Cerb & 'T' cars, but the Griff in my limited experience can be drifted & recovered from. Think it's to do with the more forgiving tyre sidewalls possibly. The 18" spiders have much lower profile tyres & possibly less compliant sidewalls giving a much less progressive breakaway?
http://youtu.be/__trOVKHwcs?t=1m25s
We'll caught !http://youtu.be/__trOVKHwcs?t=1m25s
It's not so vicious I agree...tire wall height is an interesting idea
What about rear camber setup?
Never had a problem controlling a drift in the Chim 450. Whether it was intended or not!
In fact thought on the whole it was quite manageable, but admittedly have not attempted this with other makes.
Though know many others with Chims who had difficultly.
Maybe it was more about set up?
In fact thought on the whole it was quite manageable, but admittedly have not attempted this with other makes.
Though know many others with Chims who had difficultly.
Maybe it was more about set up?
Pete,
Best you ask a man from Wiltshire about sideways Griffs smoking. I stoked it up and yep easy as. The Elise comment is interesting as on the same trip I had that sideways more than once. I've even managed to get the Tuscan on a slide as well but that does feel lively.
I am no drift king, I don't trail brake or hand brake I just turn hard and gas on.
J
Best you ask a man from Wiltshire about sideways Griffs smoking. I stoked it up and yep easy as. The Elise comment is interesting as on the same trip I had that sideways more than once. I've even managed to get the Tuscan on a slide as well but that does feel lively.
I am no drift king, I don't trail brake or hand brake I just turn hard and gas on.
J
I took my Tuscan to a midweek "learn to drift" day at Santa Pod earlier this year along with two mates, one in a current model elise, the other in an Mk3 MX5.
The upshot was the Elise blew the radiator within 15 minutes (the plastic saddle tanks went) so he retired hurt. Even the instructors couldn't drift the Tuscan reliably as it was hard to "catch" once the drift started and it became a spin. If I could catch it then I could do doughnuts but getting it to transiation between lock to lock (drift left to drift right) was more difficult than getting it started.
The MX5 was a peach for this. I noticed it had very little throttle travel and not a lot of power so it was very much on or off on the pedal whereas the TVR needed real finesse.
One other point - if you have any mechanical sympathy don't try this. You have quite high revs and little forward travel so both fans are full on and although I'm happy to drive a car hard this felt like thrashing a thoroughbred horse with barbed wire.
I have some photos somewhere.......
J
The upshot was the Elise blew the radiator within 15 minutes (the plastic saddle tanks went) so he retired hurt. Even the instructors couldn't drift the Tuscan reliably as it was hard to "catch" once the drift started and it became a spin. If I could catch it then I could do doughnuts but getting it to transiation between lock to lock (drift left to drift right) was more difficult than getting it started.
The MX5 was a peach for this. I noticed it had very little throttle travel and not a lot of power so it was very much on or off on the pedal whereas the TVR needed real finesse.
One other point - if you have any mechanical sympathy don't try this. You have quite high revs and little forward travel so both fans are full on and although I'm happy to drive a car hard this felt like thrashing a thoroughbred horse with barbed wire.
I have some photos somewhere.......
J
Isn't this to do with suspension induced balance and weight transfer.
There's an interesting article here with a table and how to correct shock induced weight transfer.
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/shocktune...
The t350 and tamora don't seem to be as snappy, even though the chassis's after a certain date are identical. If it's due to the Tuscans overhang at the rear then there's no reason that can't be dialled out.
There's an interesting article here with a table and how to correct shock induced weight transfer.
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/shocktune...
The t350 and tamora don't seem to be as snappy, even though the chassis's after a certain date are identical. If it's due to the Tuscans overhang at the rear then there's no reason that can't be dialled out.
I can think of a couple of things here.
- The rack is really quick on a Tuscan (they reduced the sensitivity on later models) so it could well be over correction although logically it should make it easier. The downside is that the slightest twitch when you're in the slide has a bigger impact.
- Tuscan has wide rear tyres (and narrower fronts). To make it lose grip you have to be causing a high moment of inertia on the car, and when the tyre loses grip that high force is still there which makes the back slide quickly, needing a quicker reaction
- Long throttle action actually makes it harder/slower to find the right throttle point so power balances grip. The car has a lot of power so once grip is limited it is easy to add too much power and lose it altogether
Drifting is all about balancing grip - you're trying to make the tyres spin enough to reduce grip in a bend but not lose it altogether. Once your drifting the balance between steering angle, throttle position and the moment of intertia is specific - if any one of those changes without another compensating then you lose the drift one way or another. The slow (long)throttle and quick steering didn't feel intuitive when I was trying.
As an aside, I had old tyres on the rear but of the same 255 section, and pumpd up to about 45 PSI to reduce the grip, this allowed doughnuts at least. I tried it at lower pressures and at the slowish speeeds I was learning at unsticking the rear sideways was all but impossible.
- The rack is really quick on a Tuscan (they reduced the sensitivity on later models) so it could well be over correction although logically it should make it easier. The downside is that the slightest twitch when you're in the slide has a bigger impact.
- Tuscan has wide rear tyres (and narrower fronts). To make it lose grip you have to be causing a high moment of inertia on the car, and when the tyre loses grip that high force is still there which makes the back slide quickly, needing a quicker reaction
- Long throttle action actually makes it harder/slower to find the right throttle point so power balances grip. The car has a lot of power so once grip is limited it is easy to add too much power and lose it altogether
Drifting is all about balancing grip - you're trying to make the tyres spin enough to reduce grip in a bend but not lose it altogether. Once your drifting the balance between steering angle, throttle position and the moment of intertia is specific - if any one of those changes without another compensating then you lose the drift one way or another. The slow (long)throttle and quick steering didn't feel intuitive when I was trying.
As an aside, I had old tyres on the rear but of the same 255 section, and pumpd up to about 45 PSI to reduce the grip, this allowed doughnuts at least. I tried it at lower pressures and at the slowish speeeds I was learning at unsticking the rear sideways was all but impossible.
Edited by Konrod on Friday 14th November 11:02
The Chimaera is fairy easy to drift, this isn't me but I've had more than a few runs in mine. It is a bit easier if you have big sidewalls on your tyres, makes it all feel less snappy..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWmSAxq2o_g&li...
They're impossible if there's very little grip though as there's no finesse about them, too torquey and an on/off throttle..
http://youtu.be/jsTlIt684R8?t=29s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWmSAxq2o_g&li...
They're impossible if there's very little grip though as there's no finesse about them, too torquey and an on/off throttle..
http://youtu.be/jsTlIt684R8?t=29s
No idea what high speed drifting is like in them but for a deserted roundabout type hoon, I've found the Tuscan, Sag and especially the Cerb, huge fun and very very predictable.
The biggest risk is over correcting because of the quick steering racks.
I've either got very benign examples or all this stuff about being uncontrollable is a bit overdone.
I'd like those who have this view to turn off all the nanny controls in their powerful rwd cars, and see how many liberties you can take on them vs nanny controls being on. And then try a TVR.
The biggest risk is over correcting because of the quick steering racks.
I've either got very benign examples or all this stuff about being uncontrollable is a bit overdone.
I'd like those who have this view to turn off all the nanny controls in their powerful rwd cars, and see how many liberties you can take on them vs nanny controls being on. And then try a TVR.
I can vouch for the hard/impossible to get it back.
Lost my first Tuscan to a greasy muddy road this way
Full lock just held me sideways until the front end got torn off, spun me round and smashed the rear end.
I don't think I've ever fitted so many swear words into ten seconds before.
Lost my first Tuscan to a greasy muddy road this way
Full lock just held me sideways until the front end got torn off, spun me round and smashed the rear end.
I don't think I've ever fitted so many swear words into ten seconds before.
so called said:
I can vouch for the hard/impossible to get it back.
Lost my first Tuscan to a greasy muddy road this way
Full lock just held me sideways until the front end got torn off, spun me round and smashed the rear end.
I don't think I've ever fitted so many swear words into ten seconds before.
Sorry to hear that, but sounds like you caught it and then the front end got ripped off. I doubt it would have been any different with any other 300 odd bhp rwd car with electronics off. Lost my first Tuscan to a greasy muddy road this way
Full lock just held me sideways until the front end got torn off, spun me round and smashed the rear end.
I don't think I've ever fitted so many swear words into ten seconds before.
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