Smoking Tuscan

Smoking Tuscan

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Discussion

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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V6Pushfit said:
I agree if the oil is under pressure as it will squirt but otherwise it's more likely to happen at the beginning of a journey where it's had time to seep and saturate the manifold area, burning off in the first 10 miles and accompanied by a hell of a smell. It still won't quite fit the billowing white smoke description though.

Yes I have even, and yes I do even but it's the original model but exactly the same problem with almost red hot headers at times and sloping gasket arrangement.
Ok so you don't have one of these.

I can assure you that when this leaks and you shut the engine off white smoke rises up from the manifold.

I'm not sure why your commenting if you don't own one of these. It's nothing like an old ford engined car, and these threads are more helpful if the posters have direct experience of the car and the issue. I can see from the pic above there is enough residue to cause the symptoms described. Guessing adds no value.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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m4tti said:
Ok so you don't have one of these.

I can assure you that when this leaks and you shut the engine off white smoke rises up from the manifold.

I'm not sure why your commenting if you don't own one of these. It's nothing like an old ford engined car, and these threads are more helpful if the posters have direct experience of the car and the issue. I can see from the pic above there is enough residue to cause the symptoms described. Guessing adds no value.
I'm not sure why you are throwing your toys out of your pram. Particularly as I have had two Tuscans it's the current one that's not a speed six - but current ownership is irrelevant anyway. You may be right, on the other hand you may be wrong, but either way your attitude won't be rectified so if I was you I'd have a look at that next

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
quotequote all
V6Pushfit said:
I'm not sure why you are throwing your toys out of your pram. Particularly as I have had two Tuscans it's the current one that's not a speed six - but current ownership is irrelevant anyway. You may be right, on the other hand you may be wrong, but either way your attitude won't be rectified so if I was you I'd have a look at that next
Not throwing my toys out of my pram thanks. I like to leave these threads better than I found them. I'm simply stating that I'm posting information on a recent experience your posting speculation.

Your right ownership is probably irrelevant. What's more relevant is I've actually stripped these engines down making me fairly familiar with common issues. Now Run along...

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th July 09:11

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
quotequote all
m4tti said:
Not throwing my toys out of my pram thanks. I like to leave these threads better than I found them. I'm simply stating that I'm posting information on a recent experience your posting speculation.

Your right ownership is probably irrelevant. What's more relevant is I've actually stripped these engines down making me fairly familiar with common issues. Now Run along...

Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th July 09:11
You were doing well there but it fell apart. Have another go and try harder no one likes a boaster.

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
quotequote all
Anyway ignoring background noise.


Rob,
If you order the gasket buy some high temp spray adhesive, it really needs sticking to the cam cover. If you fit the gasket with out, it creeps out, pinching the bolts too much result in it splitting.

The spray adhesive is messy but does work well. See spider webs on the gasket.


Flying Penguin

326 posts

158 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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m4tti said:
Anyway ignoring background noise.
This.

Milky400

1,960 posts

177 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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Play nicely Matt wink

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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Milky400 said:
Play nicely Matt wink
Mark I'm trying, im trying jester

I think it started yesterday when I answered a thread about changing an alternator belt which was some years old, but it had been previously (years ago )been answered by some poor duped soul. So had the urge to put up some experience based answers for others to benefit and not lose sleep at night spin

Have a read it's shocking. Lol


http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...


Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th July 20:35


Edited by m4tti on Saturday 16th July 20:36

Milky400

1,960 posts

177 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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Seriously though Matt, you get the alt belt wrong and you're looking at a £20k engine out rebuild!!!!! I heard not only does it cause damage to the engine it also ruins your outriggers, causes the need for a Retrim more worryingly it makes your willy fall off, myth or not I ain't risking the cost of a Retrim....

There seems to have been a lot of scare mongers out there a few years ago. But as you know these engines arnt rocket science.

Anyway back to OP, Let us know if Matt's suggestions sorts it, hopefully it will ( shhhhhh he knows his stuff, but don't let on as his head will swell further wink ) I would imagine though if it was oil, you'd know in the smell, I had been experiencing a strange smell for a number of months whilst sat in traffic with the engine heating up, no steam but guess it was the pressure value in the expansion tank giving way and dropping in on to the hot stuff.. But at the end of the day what the hell do I know... drink



Edited by Milky400 on Saturday 16th July 22:33

8ball_Rob

Original Poster:

219 posts

102 months

Saturday 16th July 2016
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Honestly guys, I leave you alone for like 5 minutes and the whole place falls apart... rolleyes

Seriously though, I've been silent all day due to being alternately bent double over the engine bay, bent double over bits of bodywork (scuttle panel) scraping off old RTV, bent double over the workbench scraping off old RTV from the cam cover, bent double over said cam cover applying fresh RTV, and finally bent double over over the engine bay again for good measure. My back is totally fubar.

Long story short, the cam cover was definitely leaking oil around the N/S bolt hole on cylinder no. 1. Putting 2+2 together, this seems to back up Matt's theory (sorry Frank and Mark!). My original description of "billowing" smoke may have been a bit overly dramatic, it was probably closer to the wisps that Matt described. I expect that the apparent lack of odour to the smoke can be explained by the fact that it had pretty much stopped and dispersed by the time I stuck my face in the bonnet vent to have a sniff, plus my sense of smell is rubbish anyway...

Anyway, the cam cover is now back on - pics to follow tomorrow. I'm leaving it to cure overnight, will take it out tomorrow and let you know how it goes! I did fire the engine up just for a minute or two with the main bonnet off, and couldn't see any signs of leaks. Then again, the oil would have been stone cold - the acid test will be whether it survives an extended run with the engine up to temperature smile

8ball_Rob

Original Poster:

219 posts

102 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
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Update, with photos:

While removing the cam cover, the extent of the leak around cylinder no. 1 quickly became apparent. The bolt with the stand-off was positively swimming in oil, confirming that the seal in this area had failed and was allowing oil into the bolt hole. With the cover off, oil can clearly be seen on the mating surface:



Bolt removed, dripping in oil:



Cover removed, ready for cleaning - whoever fitted it previously certainly had a hard-on for RTV:





Cleaned up and ready to be refitted:



Before/after comparison:

Before


After

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
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Well done.

I see from the pics there's witness marks where the chain has contacted the cam cover at some point.

8ball_Rob

Original Poster:

219 posts

102 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
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You beat me to it - I was just about to post some close-up pics of the wear on the inside of the cover:





The marks in the first pic are clearly from the timing chain - I'm tempted to order one of those gaskets you mentioned Matt! I suspected the chain was probably catching the cam cover as I know that's a common problem with the speed six, and there is a noticeable rattle that sounds like it could be caused by improper chain/cover interaction... rolleyes

I'm not sure what could be causing the wear in the second picture - any ideas? The mark looks to be pretty fresh, so I'm assuming it's recent (engine was rebuilt back in 2006). It seems to be aligned with the blue mark visible in the pic below, but there doesn't seem to be anything obvious in that area that could be causing the wear (see O/S cam between cylinders 1 and 2, looks to be halfway between the two cam lobes):



A couple of final points:

  • I have torqued all bolts to 15ft lbs - I couldn't find any specific torque settings for the cam cover bolts, but from reading Peter Sleeman's excellent guide to the speed six this would seem to be the default torque for any bolts that aren't subjected to very high loads.
  • The thread appears to have been stripped previously in one of the two rearmost holes, near the oil returns (the one on the O/S). The bolt didn't seem to put up any resistance either when being removed or refitted. I also found that the mating surface on the block at the very rear end had quite a thick layer of RTV left over once I'd taken the cover off, whereas the rest of the surface was pretty clean all the way round. This is likely due to the one stripped bolt in that area, meaning that the mating surfaces aren't being compressed quite as much as they should. How worried should I be about this? Needless to say I'll be keeping an eye out for any leaks from the rear of the cover...
Matt - do you think the stripped bolt could be an issue if I went with the viton gasket? I'd have thought that RTV at least still has a chance of making a seal even if the surfaces aren't properly compressed, but I'm not sure whether the gasket would still seal without the correct compression.

ETA: Just went back to re-torque the cam cover bolts, and noticed that the thread is also stripped on the N/S bolt adjacent cylinder 1, where the leak was previously. At first I was confused because I was sure I torqued it up yesterday, but then I remembered that I had to tighten it by hand because my socket isn't long enough to fit over the stand-off. I also made the rookie error of tightening it after I'd reattached the hose bracket and nylock nut, so the resistance I felt must have just been coming from the bracket and hose trying to stop the bolt from turning...! When I realised my error this morning I took off the locking nut, bracket and washers, and then found that the bolt itself just spins freely... I guess that explains the original leak, as that bolt isn't applying any compression eek

Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if the original leak reappears pretty quickly. I guess the only fix is to tap the hole out to a larger bore (if this is even an option), or replace the head...?? cry



Edited by 8ball_Rob on Sunday 17th July 12:22

m4tti

5,426 posts

154 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
quotequote all
Hi rob,
Yes to an extent the gasket does rely on some clamping force. You may get away with it that end of the head as there's a number of fixings close to one another down that end. With the RTV of course you can put the cover in place with it tacky and form a deal with the head.

In the thread that you think is stripped, does the bolt wind in ok then simply spin at the bottom. You could try a spring washer to lift the bolt slightly. That's an annoying problem at the rear.


QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
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So you didn't feel the polisher's urge to paint the cover to match the car, while it was off.....? idea

8ball_Rob

Original Poster:

219 posts

102 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
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Lol, the thought had actually crossed my mind wink

I wussed out though as this was my first time removing/replacing a cam cover, and I figured I'd be better off concentrating on one job at a time. If I take Matt's advice and upgrade to the viton gasket in the near future, I might tart the cover up while I've got it out again cool

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Sunday 17th July 2016
quotequote all
8ball_Rob said:
Lol, the thought had actually crossed my mind wink

I wussed out though as this was my first time removing/replacing a cam cover, and I figured I'd be better off concentrating on one job at a time. If I take Matt's advice and upgrade to the viton gasket in the near future, I might tart the cover up while I've got it out again cool
It definitely adds almost 99p to the car's value lick

8ball_Rob

Original Poster:

219 posts

102 months

Monday 18th July 2016
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Touch wood, I'm glad to report that the new seal seems to be holding up OK - it survived a 1.5hr round trip yesterday evening with no signs of any leaks. Oil temp was in the high 70s for most of the journey, peaking at 83. Ran a rag around the edge of the cover when I got home and it came up bone dry, so it looks good so far biggrin

I wouldn't be surprised if the oil forces its way through again at some point near one of the stripped bolt holes, but at least next time I'll know what the problem is straight away and how to fix it...

Thanks everyone for your advice and encouragement, Saturday was pretty stressful but it looks like all the elbow grease was worth it!

PetrolHeadPete

743 posts

188 months

Monday 18th July 2016
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Now you've had it in bus once...it only gets worse wink painting, polishing, plating..you know you want to !

Sagi Badger

588 posts

192 months

Tuesday 19th July 2016
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Matt, we know you just make it all up about these engines....LOL....!

Rob,

Check the length of the bolt, you will find that there is spare depth on these and a final/plug tap run into the hole will mean you can use a bolt nearly 10mm longer. The spring washers are a good idea, esp. if using the Viton gasket. I don't use spray glue, I use Serious Glue by Bostik, comes from BnQ in a silly tube but doesn't let off with the heat like the spray glue does. Phone their tech guys if you don't believe me, its the nuts for this.

Anyway the correct clamping pressure is important, over gripping nuts can cause problems as Matt refers to, see the image. Gentle pressure....