Worried About Winter
Discussion
Morning Mr Hunter ...
Just to echo some of your comments . . .
The Elise (ok different car but the principles may apply) NEEDS to be setup laden, or as you would drive it (for me that's driver + pax + 1/2 tank of fuel).
So what difference does this make ?
Well,
a) that's how it's specified in the manual and thus all the geo setups out there are relative to this.
b) the front suspension especially is very sensitive to rideheight, and has a very suble toe setting which changes fairly radically with rideheight. If you set the car up unladen, then sit in it, the geo is completely wrong. Symptoms are instability at speed, vague turn in, unstable tracking through corners, etc . . .
Now, whether the Tuscan geo figures are designed for laden setup or unladen setup I don't know, but I would say that it's important to know this before letting anybody do geo work on the car.
You may thing - well the dealer will know, but many Elise owners have badly setup cars because many places (including dealers) don't set the geo laden.
Having driven with Donald on many occasion on road and track I'd have to say I agree re. the suspension setup . . . on track expecially there are featues on our local track that I never paid much attention to in my car but that seriously upset the Tuscan, at comparable speeds too.
In my 750Kg elise I run 325/400 f/r springs (over double the standard springrate IIRC) and Nitron NTR dampers (some of the first Elise ones made - probably over 11K miles use so far) and I would have to say that the Elise is not much harsher than Donald's Tuscan at low speeds (bearing in mind the total lack of soundproofing, etc), but much more composed at speed, I'm fairly sure the chassis helps, but IMHO it's a damper/spring/geo issue that's the root of the problem.
I shot some video of one of the 'problem' areas on track for Donald on Friday night and it's quite interesting to watch . . . the car certainly looks very soft . . .
Anyways . . . as a Nitron user I'd thoroughly recommend them, they seem, to me, to be a quality product backed by a very responsive and reasoanble manufacturer (Guy @ Nitron) . . . it all depends on who developed the valving/springrate combo for the Tuscan. The guy that did it for the S1 elise race Elises and have done for years, the S2 elise kit is in final development by another racer who makes his living driving elises . . . I'd assume the Tuscan kit would have a similar amount of experience invested in it . . .
Oh, and no connection to any of these companies . . .
Fd
Just to echo some of your comments . . .
The Elise (ok different car but the principles may apply) NEEDS to be setup laden, or as you would drive it (for me that's driver + pax + 1/2 tank of fuel).
So what difference does this make ?
Well,
a) that's how it's specified in the manual and thus all the geo setups out there are relative to this.
b) the front suspension especially is very sensitive to rideheight, and has a very suble toe setting which changes fairly radically with rideheight. If you set the car up unladen, then sit in it, the geo is completely wrong. Symptoms are instability at speed, vague turn in, unstable tracking through corners, etc . . .
Now, whether the Tuscan geo figures are designed for laden setup or unladen setup I don't know, but I would say that it's important to know this before letting anybody do geo work on the car.
You may thing - well the dealer will know, but many Elise owners have badly setup cars because many places (including dealers) don't set the geo laden.
Having driven with Donald on many occasion on road and track I'd have to say I agree re. the suspension setup . . . on track expecially there are featues on our local track that I never paid much attention to in my car but that seriously upset the Tuscan, at comparable speeds too.
In my 750Kg elise I run 325/400 f/r springs (over double the standard springrate IIRC) and Nitron NTR dampers (some of the first Elise ones made - probably over 11K miles use so far) and I would have to say that the Elise is not much harsher than Donald's Tuscan at low speeds (bearing in mind the total lack of soundproofing, etc), but much more composed at speed, I'm fairly sure the chassis helps, but IMHO it's a damper/spring/geo issue that's the root of the problem.
I shot some video of one of the 'problem' areas on track for Donald on Friday night and it's quite interesting to watch . . . the car certainly looks very soft . . .
Anyways . . . as a Nitron user I'd thoroughly recommend them, they seem, to me, to be a quality product backed by a very responsive and reasoanble manufacturer (Guy @ Nitron) . . . it all depends on who developed the valving/springrate combo for the Tuscan. The guy that did it for the S1 elise race Elises and have done for years, the S2 elise kit is in final development by another racer who makes his living driving elises . . . I'd assume the Tuscan kit would have a similar amount of experience invested in it . . .
Oh, and no connection to any of these companies . . .
Fd
I watched some of fergusd's video of my car last night and compared the car's behaviour with YAHOO's car (with upraded springs/dampers) that was on the same footage.
My Tuscan dives under braking and the rear lifts to the point that it's amost floating while YAHOO's car sits almost completely flat and composed. My car is also visibly unsettled by bumps on the track, taking a long time to recover.
The video footage really presents compelling evidence that the suspension is too soft. A great tool for diagnosis.
My Tuscan dives under braking and the rear lifts to the point that it's amost floating while YAHOO's car sits almost completely flat and composed. My car is also visibly unsettled by bumps on the track, taking a long time to recover.
The video footage really presents compelling evidence that the suspension is too soft. A great tool for diagnosis.
sally
my car has similar problems to what you have described. I have dropped it into Andy at APM to look at
To echo the earlier comments the 2000 cars had different suspension set up to latter cars and I'm running 35 series SO2's. I am changing to 40 series toyos and having Andy re set up the car with the latest factory settings so will let you know what difference this makes to the handling
I'm also keen not to spend £2k on new suspension if there is a less costly fix
Interestingly I drove a friends Cerbie back from APM and it is a far better car in terms of handling - the cerbie rides and tracks better and is no where near as skittish on the road
scott
my car has similar problems to what you have described. I have dropped it into Andy at APM to look at
To echo the earlier comments the 2000 cars had different suspension set up to latter cars and I'm running 35 series SO2's. I am changing to 40 series toyos and having Andy re set up the car with the latest factory settings so will let you know what difference this makes to the handling
I'm also keen not to spend £2k on new suspension if there is a less costly fix
Interestingly I drove a friends Cerbie back from APM and it is a far better car in terms of handling - the cerbie rides and tracks better and is no where near as skittish on the road
scott
Hi Scott - it's a massive relief to hear that it's not just me! Please do let me know when you get the car back and what you think to the upgrades. If it makes a big difference it would be worth the money... although sometimes I think I would be better off with a car renowned for amazing handling, like an Elise or something. I have more fun throwing cars through bends than I do avoiding speed cameras.
Late night doing other things . . . so . . .
www.employees.org/~fergusd/dhtvr_divx_5_0_3.avi is the clip we were looking at.
To view this you will require the divx 5.0.3 video codec installed on your machine, you can get that from here : www.divx.com/divx
Download the free, basic version.
It's about a meg
There is better stuff of both cars individually, but it's too late to start on that now
Fd
www.employees.org/~fergusd/dhtvr_divx_5_0_3.avi is the clip we were looking at.
To view this you will require the divx 5.0.3 video codec installed on your machine, you can get that from here : www.divx.com/divx
Download the free, basic version.
It's about a meg
There is better stuff of both cars individually, but it's too late to start on that now
Fd
It's actually quite difficult to see on such a small screen, it's much better on the big TV . . .
things to look for
1. The car in front is the unmodded Tuscan, look at the wheel arch gaps compared to the car behind . . .
2. looking at the clip enough (again on a big TV) it looks to me that the unmodded car is undergoing a very large amount of suspension travel compared to the car behind given the same speed and road inputs.
I think some of the other clips we were looking at are perhaps clearer, but I haven't had time to do anything with them
Fd
things to look for
1. The car in front is the unmodded Tuscan, look at the wheel arch gaps compared to the car behind . . .
2. looking at the clip enough (again on a big TV) it looks to me that the unmodded car is undergoing a very large amount of suspension travel compared to the car behind given the same speed and road inputs.
I think some of the other clips we were looking at are perhaps clearer, but I haven't had time to do anything with them
Fd
I'm pretty certain having read this lot that your geometery is incorrect - that doesn't necessarily mean you have to change dampers or springs at vast expense. It may also be the tyres you are running on ?
Having said that, it would be interesting to be able to swap cars for a drive and just see if it is the suspension or maybe the way that you are driving it (yeah I don't mean this as an insult at all) we all drive differently
Also without seeing how you drive it, brake, accelerate etc it's difficult to comment. A track day is the MUST for learning what and wot not to do with this particular beast, but I just wonder how much you are trying to fight it into a straight line ? Also you can't really compare how much one Tusk dips under braking compared to another on the road - we all apply brakes differently! - uuumm intrigued now!
Chances are that I would drive your car and agree that the steering is all over the place - who knows, anybody near you that you would trust to give a third party opinion
It strikes me as odd because having come from a Chimaera that does wander around and does bite you right in the *rse if you overbrake, I find my Tuscan is very well balanced - OK it's not a Noble! But I drive out with one on a regular basis and we give them both some stick on B roads and all sorts (when it's safe to do so of course etc etc) - I don't ever feel out of control
Good thread - look forward to the outcome
Simon
Having said that, it would be interesting to be able to swap cars for a drive and just see if it is the suspension or maybe the way that you are driving it (yeah I don't mean this as an insult at all) we all drive differently
Also without seeing how you drive it, brake, accelerate etc it's difficult to comment. A track day is the MUST for learning what and wot not to do with this particular beast, but I just wonder how much you are trying to fight it into a straight line ? Also you can't really compare how much one Tusk dips under braking compared to another on the road - we all apply brakes differently! - uuumm intrigued now!
Chances are that I would drive your car and agree that the steering is all over the place - who knows, anybody near you that you would trust to give a third party opinion
It strikes me as odd because having come from a Chimaera that does wander around and does bite you right in the *rse if you overbrake, I find my Tuscan is very well balanced - OK it's not a Noble! But I drive out with one on a regular basis and we give them both some stick on B roads and all sorts (when it's safe to do so of course etc etc) - I don't ever feel out of control
Good thread - look forward to the outcome
Simon
ive had serious doubts over tuscan ride/handling since picking up my car last week car runs on 18s with new 40 series Toyos until i checked tyre pressures today for the first time. so much for dealer servicing the pressures were 26 front 28 rear ive reset them to 22/25 as a compromise and then set off for a blast upto Goodwood motor circuit what a transformation the thing know handles and rides!! superb it sounds stupid but get your gauges out. Tony 
Visited Racing Green yesterday, and have booked the car in to be set up on the alignment machine on 6th May. Their verdict was that the wheels were severely out, probably all pointing in different directions. The problems at speed come from the rear wheels being straight and then turning in once the power is put down, whereas they should be set up to point slightly out so that when power is down they toe in straight. Also noticed some uneven tyre wear.
I'm running (damaged) S01's right now, so will probably get them to put a new set of S02's on as well.
The 2 chaps who looked at the car actually worked on it previously (at Mole Valley I presume) - one of them actually spec'd the colour scheme and filled out the log book. Small world...
I'm running (damaged) S01's right now, so will probably get them to put a new set of S02's on as well.
The 2 chaps who looked at the car actually worked on it previously (at Mole Valley I presume) - one of them actually spec'd the colour scheme and filled out the log book. Small world...
T88CAN said: ive had serious doubts over tuscan ride/handling since picking up my car last week car runs on 18s with new 40 series Toyos until i checked tyre pressures today for the first time. so much for dealer servicing the pressures were 26 front 28 rear ive reset them to 22/25 as a compromise and then set off for a blast upto Goodwood motor circuit what a transformation the thing know handles and rides!! superb it sounds stupid but get your gauges out. Tony
Too true! the best thing I bought was a digital tyre pressure gauge from Halfords for a tenner, accurate to 1 psi. I run 17's and the optimum cold tyre pressure seems to be 23/25.
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