beware speed six engines
Discussion
My Tuscan is 1 year old now and has 9K on the clock. It has started 1st time EVERY time and is used every day as my only car. I have never owned a TVR before and can quite happily say that I would buy another one. TVR's are not the only cars to have engine probs, we had 2 BMW 328's on our car fleet 3 years ago and both had to have new engines after 20k miles (due to higher levels of sulphur in UK fuel corroding bits of the engine?)
Keep it up TVR - you are the greatest.
Keep it up TVR - you are the greatest.
When the liners on the BMW straight six engines were done in by sulphur in UK unleaded - a friend's 328 was recalled, hence my knowledge of this - BMW went into overdrive, recalling ALL affected cars and giving grovelling apologies, courtesy cars, a night with the MD's wife etc etc
What harm did it do BMW's reputation? Not much. A one off mistake. People still think the sun shines out of BMW tailpipes.
Now, to be brutally honest, the speed six engine problems are just the last in a long line of build quality concerns experienced by TVR owners. That's a largely undeniable fact. And there'll be more in the future if Peter Wheeler doesn't get his act together.
Everyone knows a reliable TVR, and an unreliable Merc. I could tell you of a Chimp that's used everyday that has NEVER gone wrong, and of a Merc AMG E55 that needed to be returned to the factory with a major, and unfixable, ECU fault (it was cheaper to give the guy a new car than replace all the wiring and electronics). I myself had the biggest pile of horseshit Volkswagen Polo (supposed to be reliable) that ever came out of Wolfsburg.
However, the freqency of problems with Merc, BMW and Porsche seems, by general to be less than TVR - where there's smoke there's usually fire.
And then, to cap it off, Peter Wheeler doesn't seem to give a flying f*** about his customers. Where was the recall on all Tuscans before their engines started going bang? Some owners got courtesy cars, others didn't. The lucky ones may even have got an apology and an admission of guilt...
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Friday 2nd November 10:54
What harm did it do BMW's reputation? Not much. A one off mistake. People still think the sun shines out of BMW tailpipes.
Now, to be brutally honest, the speed six engine problems are just the last in a long line of build quality concerns experienced by TVR owners. That's a largely undeniable fact. And there'll be more in the future if Peter Wheeler doesn't get his act together.
Everyone knows a reliable TVR, and an unreliable Merc. I could tell you of a Chimp that's used everyday that has NEVER gone wrong, and of a Merc AMG E55 that needed to be returned to the factory with a major, and unfixable, ECU fault (it was cheaper to give the guy a new car than replace all the wiring and electronics). I myself had the biggest pile of horseshit Volkswagen Polo (supposed to be reliable) that ever came out of Wolfsburg.
However, the freqency of problems with Merc, BMW and Porsche seems, by general to be less than TVR - where there's smoke there's usually fire.
And then, to cap it off, Peter Wheeler doesn't seem to give a flying f*** about his customers. Where was the recall on all Tuscans before their engines started going bang? Some owners got courtesy cars, others didn't. The lucky ones may even have got an apology and an admission of guilt...
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Friday 2nd November 10:54
Let's not make out that TVR are the only ones to apparently mistreat their customers when it comes to quality or design problems with their engines.
I was within 24 hours of taking delivery of a new BMW 328 (ducks the flak) some 3.5 years ago. It was fitted with a six cylinder engine of the type described in this thread where the cylinder coating suffered from sulphuric acid erosion and attack on each cold start. The problem was that the silicon coating on the ally block released silica under the effects of the acid which of course creates a nice grinding paste. The design was flawed as they hadn't taken account of the full range of sulphur content to be found in UK petrols all of which still complied with the fuel spec.
The point is I found out about this from the motoring press JUST in time and concluded:
1. Let the buyer beware because BMW were not about to tell you and were content to carry on selling a new product with a serious design fault
.
2. They had no intentions of doing anything about it on a 'recall' basis - the fix was to fit steel liners by the way. In fact they were just hoping that most of their customers would not visit Manchester and some parts of the SW and therefore not fill up with the higher sulphur content petrol until after their warranty expired.
3. They were not prepared to negotiate on the new car deal in any way except to increase the warranty mileage but not the time. Neither were they prepared to admit that it could affect the resale value. I didn't buy it needless to say.
4. More concerning, far from recalling all affected engines they were even quoted as refusing to accept their responsiblities under the warranty because one particular failed car had been given an oil change by a non-BMW franchised dealer. Nice handy excuse eh?
I am not defending the undoubted problems that have been associated with the speed six engines and in fact have recently opted for a Noble M12 instead of either a new Tamora or Tuscan, largely because of all the various reported problems. I cannot however remain silent when the situation is painted blacker by comparison to the responsible approach and customer care offered by other manufacturers.
From this, I have learnt from my experiences which have taught me only to go for a well proven product where those who have gone before have suffered for the good of all. Have I b£$*%*%s
, it's just a great car and I want one. I will however go for an extended warranty and follow the required conditions.
I was within 24 hours of taking delivery of a new BMW 328 (ducks the flak) some 3.5 years ago. It was fitted with a six cylinder engine of the type described in this thread where the cylinder coating suffered from sulphuric acid erosion and attack on each cold start. The problem was that the silicon coating on the ally block released silica under the effects of the acid which of course creates a nice grinding paste. The design was flawed as they hadn't taken account of the full range of sulphur content to be found in UK petrols all of which still complied with the fuel spec.
The point is I found out about this from the motoring press JUST in time and concluded:
1. Let the buyer beware because BMW were not about to tell you and were content to carry on selling a new product with a serious design fault
. 2. They had no intentions of doing anything about it on a 'recall' basis - the fix was to fit steel liners by the way. In fact they were just hoping that most of their customers would not visit Manchester and some parts of the SW and therefore not fill up with the higher sulphur content petrol until after their warranty expired.
3. They were not prepared to negotiate on the new car deal in any way except to increase the warranty mileage but not the time. Neither were they prepared to admit that it could affect the resale value. I didn't buy it needless to say.
4. More concerning, far from recalling all affected engines they were even quoted as refusing to accept their responsiblities under the warranty because one particular failed car had been given an oil change by a non-BMW franchised dealer. Nice handy excuse eh?
I am not defending the undoubted problems that have been associated with the speed six engines and in fact have recently opted for a Noble M12 instead of either a new Tamora or Tuscan, largely because of all the various reported problems. I cannot however remain silent when the situation is painted blacker by comparison to the responsible approach and customer care offered by other manufacturers.
From this, I have learnt from my experiences which have taught me only to go for a well proven product where those who have gone before have suffered for the good of all. Have I b£$*%*%s
, it's just a great car and I want one. I will however go for an extended warranty and follow the required conditions.
Fair enough martvr - I hear what you're saying. My friend with the BMW 328 may just have been an isolated case in receiving the care he did. I didn't know the full story, just a bit of it, from one BMW owner. There's no denying that he received a substantial amount of customer care, before the problem arose, though. He was cursing the hassle of getting it booked in, ungrateful sod.
On a personal level, I think BMW Bracknell (UK head office) are pretty marginal. Wouldn't trust them as far as their driveway.
Any manufacturer will get away with what they can... look at Ford and its problem with exploding tyres/cruise control etc... but just because they all do it, doesn't give them the right to.
I would still like to know why Peter Wheeler is so elusive, though, and why he vehemently denies any build quality issues in public... and why no car magazines ever seem to mind bits dropping off their test cars (Evo Tuscan top whack test had the spoiler problem).
Autocar kicked up a stink when their Rover 620Ti engine exploded.
Amybe we'll have to wait until Anne Robinson gets a brand new Tiv...
On a personal level, I think BMW Bracknell (UK head office) are pretty marginal. Wouldn't trust them as far as their driveway.
Any manufacturer will get away with what they can... look at Ford and its problem with exploding tyres/cruise control etc... but just because they all do it, doesn't give them the right to.
I would still like to know why Peter Wheeler is so elusive, though, and why he vehemently denies any build quality issues in public... and why no car magazines ever seem to mind bits dropping off their test cars (Evo Tuscan top whack test had the spoiler problem).
Autocar kicked up a stink when their Rover 620Ti engine exploded.
Amybe we'll have to wait until Anne Robinson gets a brand new Tiv...
Im a massive fan of TVRs myself, but seeing the very numerous horror stories and crap customer service, I have decided not to get one ... YET!! - I mean why spend 40K on a car that will most likely spend more time at the TVR garage than in your own garage. C'mon, at least the engines should be robust even if the body panels and interiors fall off after 3 months! - I reckon some TVR buff should start up a business to PROPERLY fix the thousands of croddy TVRs out there... man, he would make loads of money!
Petrolted. Just because its your "party", does it make wrong to canvas (in a constructive manner) all aspects of TVR ownership? People are angry,frustrated and worried which is why the same topic/s get repeated. If TVR notice and the "shafting" stops.You may end being one of the heros who saved TVR.
Sorry, I was in a bad mood when I posted that. The thing that gets me about this type of discussion is that you can never resolve it.
The only people that actually really know the reliability are the factory. In a public forum you will always have people that have not had a problem, and then people that will have had a problem. Therefore all you are left with is perception - which at the individual experience level is likely to be wrong - especially as the perception of a self select forum like this tends to be worse than reality as people with problems tend to post more than people who don't.
I've owned two VWs, a Fiat and a TVR. And the most unreliable - the VWs. The most rattly (by a long way) - the VWs. This was totally against the perception at the time - remember the squeaky ear-ring advert ?
In other words ignore the perception, talk to your dealer and make your decision based on that, not what people say here. It's the dealer that's selling you the car, not PistonHeads.
Mmm. Maybe I'm still in a bad mood. I'm going to chill out now with some loud exhaust sounds in my better quality than a VW, TVR....
The only people that actually really know the reliability are the factory. In a public forum you will always have people that have not had a problem, and then people that will have had a problem. Therefore all you are left with is perception - which at the individual experience level is likely to be wrong - especially as the perception of a self select forum like this tends to be worse than reality as people with problems tend to post more than people who don't.
I've owned two VWs, a Fiat and a TVR. And the most unreliable - the VWs. The most rattly (by a long way) - the VWs. This was totally against the perception at the time - remember the squeaky ear-ring advert ?
In other words ignore the perception, talk to your dealer and make your decision based on that, not what people say here. It's the dealer that's selling you the car, not PistonHeads.
Mmm. Maybe I'm still in a bad mood. I'm going to chill out now with some loud exhaust sounds in my better quality than a VW, TVR....
well said andyvdg! in belated response to your question 28-10-01 (namechange from geneward), yes i have a cerbera s6 rather than the tuscan s6. same engine same problems? anyway, joy to the world, my cerb is due back this week and rather than bitch im gonna go have some real fun (everything else is just too slow!). will post if i discover what the real problem was with my s6 engine.
ssix
ssix
So for all those who have got recent (ie last 2/3 months) Tuscans have there been any engine problems? All the info I'm getting is that very recent owners are very happy fans. I've spoken to TVR who say the same....but then they would I hear the cynics say......but I do want to believe it as I'm just about to part with my deposit.
It is funny to notice that as TVR at last begins to be recognised as a true great sports car maker, people complain more and more with TVRs reliabiliy.
well, my theory is:
1)somebody average is not "asked" anything
2)somebody who is willing not to be average anymore and who really wants to increase their capabilities are even more criticised (TVR's current position)
Considering this it is hugely understandable that TVRs need at least 3 or 4 (or even more) years to improve their engines' reliability. Just look at Porsche (yes, always the same example): the 911 was near bulls*it before the 993.
So please give a break to TVR and Peter Wheeler; I fully understand the big frustration felt by Tuscan or Cerbera Speed six owners victomized by engine failures, but they have to admit they are "test drivers" in the way that only their experiences can help TVR go the right direction.
Edited by thom on Thursday 8th November 12:51
well, my theory is:
1)somebody average is not "asked" anything
2)somebody who is willing not to be average anymore and who really wants to increase their capabilities are even more criticised (TVR's current position)
Considering this it is hugely understandable that TVRs need at least 3 or 4 (or even more) years to improve their engines' reliability. Just look at Porsche (yes, always the same example): the 911 was near bulls*it before the 993.
So please give a break to TVR and Peter Wheeler; I fully understand the big frustration felt by Tuscan or Cerbera Speed six owners victomized by engine failures, but they have to admit they are "test drivers" in the way that only their experiences can help TVR go the right direction.
Edited by thom on Thursday 8th November 12:51
Please don't cut off this thread.
Not until the question mark of the engine is finally put to bed by TVR, AND the MAIN thing that their Customer Service Attitude has changed.
I want to buy in the Tuscan or Tamora in the future. But I'll stick to My Griff V8 until I believe that they are a safe bet.
B
Not until the question mark of the engine is finally put to bed by TVR, AND the MAIN thing that their Customer Service Attitude has changed.
I want to buy in the Tuscan or Tamora in the future. But I'll stick to My Griff V8 until I believe that they are a safe bet.
B
I would say that TVR's main problem is that the factory do very little component sign-off work. All major manufacturers can afford to take over 3-4 years to develop a new car which is then sent to Death valley for heat trials. Timmins in North canada for cold trials, the engines will have to pass 200hours of Wide open throttle work. There will be a couple of dozen prototypes given to engineers and managers within the company to drive around and treat as everyday cars with loggers running to provide data. The cars will change all the time and the final sign off vehicles must have passed all of the tests to the companies satisfaction.
All of this takes time and money which TVR simply do not have. So the customer ends up performing the development work. Quite frankly I'm impressed that there are as few problems as there are.
As basically the cars are well designed, especially considering how many risks they take with new technology.
If you want a new TVR, wait 18 months for others to do the development then buy one.
Matt
All of this takes time and money which TVR simply do not have. So the customer ends up performing the development work. Quite frankly I'm impressed that there are as few problems as there are.
As basically the cars are well designed, especially considering how many risks they take with new technology.
If you want a new TVR, wait 18 months for others to do the development then buy one.
Matt
quote:
If you want a new TVR, wait 18 months for others to do the development then buy one.
Matt
I agree 100% with what you have said. That is the true TVR problem. But if everyone waits 18 months the company will go to the wall.
I think that all TVR users owe a vote of thanks to the pioneers who buy the first cars.
As long as TVR supports these first owners to the hilt, its okay with me.
My impression however is that this is not the case and that some owners have been left in the lurch to the tune of thousands of pounds. Now that really stinks.
Rgds, WalterU
Chaps,
I agree with some other comments on this thread - just drop it! I am confused and amazed by some of the comments here. Public statements of reliability? 250 engines for rebuild? For gods sake, does it matter?
Ok, I have had my TVR for 2 weeks now and I cannot comment on its reliability. But, I purchased this car with the knowledge that it "may" not be the most reliable car in the world. If I wanted this I would not purchase a TVR - but then again, I probably wouldnt get a Porsche, Noble ... etc etc etc.
You pay your money, you take your risk. Ok, £40K is a lot of money, but just like everything else in life - they can (and do) go wrong.
As for "public statements" - why? What does this prove? As soon as anyone makes a public statement then everyone will hold them to it. But it works both ways.... It proves nothing.
Finally, think of it this way - for a new Tuscan you are looking at the thick end of £45K for the car. What you get is one of the most accelerative cars on the market. 0-60 in around 4, and 180MPH - dont forget that 0-100 in around 10 (supposedly). Impressive by anyones measures. However, you try purchasing something of this level of performance for that price - you cant (and no one mention the Lotus 7 type cars - they dont count!). For that type of performance you are looking Ferrari 360 @ £100K and Porsche Turbo @ £80K. Either way, much more money - you pays your money you takes your choice.....
Nuff said.
Paul
Chimaera 4.0 HC
I agree with some other comments on this thread - just drop it! I am confused and amazed by some of the comments here. Public statements of reliability? 250 engines for rebuild? For gods sake, does it matter?
Ok, I have had my TVR for 2 weeks now and I cannot comment on its reliability. But, I purchased this car with the knowledge that it "may" not be the most reliable car in the world. If I wanted this I would not purchase a TVR - but then again, I probably wouldnt get a Porsche, Noble ... etc etc etc.
You pay your money, you take your risk. Ok, £40K is a lot of money, but just like everything else in life - they can (and do) go wrong.
As for "public statements" - why? What does this prove? As soon as anyone makes a public statement then everyone will hold them to it. But it works both ways.... It proves nothing.
Finally, think of it this way - for a new Tuscan you are looking at the thick end of £45K for the car. What you get is one of the most accelerative cars on the market. 0-60 in around 4, and 180MPH - dont forget that 0-100 in around 10 (supposedly). Impressive by anyones measures. However, you try purchasing something of this level of performance for that price - you cant (and no one mention the Lotus 7 type cars - they dont count!). For that type of performance you are looking Ferrari 360 @ £100K and Porsche Turbo @ £80K. Either way, much more money - you pays your money you takes your choice.....
Nuff said.
Paul
Chimaera 4.0 HC
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