RE: Biofuel timebomb
Discussion
vsonix said:
I filled up our '51' plate e46 320i with E10 in France. The car was running like clockwork, in fantastic condition, 91k miles on the clock, and fresh from an Inspection II service. Totally problem-free in two years of ownership. One fill-up. As I did it, I had this 'hmm... I idunno if I trust this stuff' thought, and went back to regular 95. Approximately 1500 miles later she started making a tapping noise from the engine which got louder and louder until the car went into Limp mode. No oil. From then until we eventually got rid, she was drinking somewhere in the region of a litre of oil every 100 miles or so with no clue or indication as to why. Being cosmetically perfect and very clean, our garage bought it from us to fix up and as a loaner, stripped the engine to try and locate the problem as there were no fault codes or anything showing - turns out all the seals were totally destroyed. The pump stated "suitable for all cars 2000 and later" - I double-checked before filling. Of course, I have no way of proving it was the E10 that did this but considering the
otherwise mint and problem-free nature of the car it seems an awfully strange coincidence
Were the seal in the fuel injector pump?otherwise mint and problem-free nature of the car it seems an awfully strange coincidence
AUDI have stated my 2003 A4 FSI must not use ANY Ethanol fuel.
Later FSI -2006 on I think - are OK.
Interesting that. Vorsprung Durch Technik anyone??
Terry Barr said:
I read on an aviation forum that BP Ultimate and Shell V-Power were both non alcoholic.
I suppose that what we really need is a molecular filter so that we can separate the the alcohol from the fuel then use the fuel as fuel and either drink the alcohol or just flog it off as moonshine. Could work out OK on the financial front.
You'll be getting at least 40p per unit - and one unit is 10ml of Ethanol... Quids in! I suppose that what we really need is a molecular filter so that we can separate the the alcohol from the fuel then use the fuel as fuel and either drink the alcohol or just flog it off as moonshine. Could work out OK on the financial front.
Jaged said:
vsonix said:
I filled up our '51' plate e46 320i with E10 in France. The car was running like clockwork, in fantastic condition, 91k miles on the clock, and fresh from an Inspection II service. Totally problem-free in two years of ownership. One fill-up. As I did it, I had this 'hmm... I idunno if I trust this stuff' thought, and went back to regular 95. Approximately 1500 miles later she started making a tapping noise from the engine which got louder and louder until the car went into Limp mode. No oil. From then until we eventually got rid, she was drinking somewhere in the region of a litre of oil every 100 miles or so with no clue or indication as to why. Being cosmetically perfect and very clean, our garage bought it from us to fix up and as a loaner, stripped the engine to try and locate the problem as there were no fault codes or anything showing - turns out all the seals were totally destroyed. The pump stated "suitable for all cars 2000 and later" - I double-checked before filling. Of course, I have no way of proving it was the E10 that did this but considering the
otherwise mint and problem-free nature of the car it seems an awfully strange coincidence
Were the seal in the fuel injector pump?otherwise mint and problem-free nature of the car it seems an awfully strange coincidence
Possibly the reason Audi say not to use E5 in my 2003 FSI (direct injection) engine.
(apologies for poor close ups via phone-cam)
The fuel strainer mesh on the tank mounted low pressure fuel pump blocks up.
This caused all sorts of engine problems, warning lights and zero power limp home mode while overtaking on the motorway!
Not a pleasant experience that I can assure you!
(apologies for poor close ups via phone-cam)
The fuel strainer mesh on the tank mounted low pressure fuel pump blocks up.
This caused all sorts of engine problems, warning lights and zero power limp home mode while overtaking on the motorway!
Not a pleasant experience that I can assure you!
I am thinking we have this the wrong way round.
Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
KDIcarmad said:
I am thinking we have this the wrong way round.
Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
The man does talk rather a lot of sense. Maybe even a market for someone to produce suitable replacement parts or offer to 'convert' cars which may be affected?Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
Either way, good, clear, factual knowledge is very important to get out early before people make their own assumptions.
KDIcarmad said:
I am thinking we have this the wrong way round.
Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
The problem with unleaded petrol was well defined. It was known that valve-seat erosion would affect certain types of engine and the solution was simple. Either to use a fuel additive, or to modify the engine.Most people are moaning about what this has done to there cars or could do. Maybe we should be ask what action can I take to stop it damaging my car. It could just be a non event in the end if we take the right action now. I remember the lead being taken out and how a lot of people claim this would damage most cars. It has not, yes a few older cars need to use additives or fit a hardened parts.
The difference in this case is that there are many different materials that could be affected, which have been used in many different ways in different engines. It is impossible to say that any particular engine will be OK, unless you can be sure that all the components that come into contact with the fuel, from piping, to seals, to alloy components, are all compatible with it you won't be sure. While a manufacturer could declare that an individual model should OK according to the specification it left the factory in, there are many vehicles that have been maintained using pattern parts, or even that the parts used during manufacture have changed through the life of the design. In many cases it will only become apparent there is a problem after the fact.
So yes, in theory you could take similar preventative action, but determining what actually needs to be done would be difficult and may not be cost effective. You can't simply add something to the fuel to negate the effect of the ethanol, as you can with unleaded petrol.
otolith said:
The fundamental problem is that we have hardly any hydrogen. We've an awful lot of the ash that you get when you burn hydrogen, oceans of it, but that isn't a particularly useful state of affairs. You can turn it back into hydrogen and oxygen, all you need is a source of lots of cheap, clean energy. Then you can burn it again, and get use of less than half the energy you put in.
Yep you either need a massive amount of electricity and lots of platinum (I think that is the best electrode to use for 2H20 -> 2H2 + 02 production.Or the industrial process is to 'burn' water in superheated carbon monoxide - but wait H20 + C0 = H2 + C02 hmm so you are still producing this evil C02. I am also not sure where the C0 would come from either – more fossil fuels probably.
There are now approved additives to combat the effects of the ethanol
See link
http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/04/13/fuel-stability-addit...
See link
http://fbhvc.co.uk/2012/04/13/fuel-stability-addit...
I have now had it confirmed by Shell that their V-Power contains 5% ethanol. 
BP web site confirms that Ultimate contains NO ethanol.
Shell Office said:
Both Shell FuelSave Regular Unleaded and Shell V-Power Unleaded
contain up to 5% ethanol
contain up to 5% ethanol
BP web site confirms that Ultimate contains NO ethanol.
BP Website said:
BP Ultimate is the highest octane retail fuel that BP has on the market. It has an octane rating between 98 and 100 and does not contain ethanol.
RichB said:
I have now had it confirmed by Shell that their V-Power contains up to 5% ethanol.
There you go, fixed it for you.Shell Office said:
Both Shell FuelSave Regular Unleaded and Shell V-Power Unleaded
contain up to 5% ethanol
contain up to 5% ethanol
Just means they can alter the amount of ethanol in their blend as long as they don't go over 5%.
RichB said:
I have now had it confirmed by Shell that their V-Power contains 5% ethanol.
BP web site confirms that Ultimate contains NO ethanol.
Are you sure about BP ultimate in the UK has zero % ethanol?Shell Office said:
Both Shell FuelSave Regular Unleaded and Shell V-Power Unleaded
contain up to 5% ethanol
contain up to 5% ethanol
BP web site confirms that Ultimate contains NO ethanol.
BP Website said:
BP Ultimate is the highest octane retail fuel that BP has on the market. It has an octane rating between 98 and 100 and does not contain ethanol.
I read somewhere that this depends on the region and for example the South West has up to 5%.
I think the quote you have there is actually from BP Australia.
For those that seem to doubt the effects it has on cars/bikes, come along and see my Aprilia RS250 plastic tank. Swollen and bulging due to water ingress into the nylon from ethanol based fuels.
ChrisFitz said:
Are you sure about BP ultimate in the UK has zero % ethanol?
I read somewhere that this depends on the region and for example the South West has up to 5%.
I think the quote you have there is actually from BP Australia.
For those that seem to doubt the effects it has on cars/bikes, come along and see my Aprilia RS250 plastic tank. Swollen and bulging due to water ingress into the nylon from ethanol based fuels.
I'm surprised BP is making that statement; I can't see how it can be true - even in Oz. I read somewhere that this depends on the region and for example the South West has up to 5%.
I think the quote you have there is actually from BP Australia.
For those that seem to doubt the effects it has on cars/bikes, come along and see my Aprilia RS250 plastic tank. Swollen and bulging due to water ingress into the nylon from ethanol based fuels.
In any case, the EU legislation is pretty clear about % of renewable material in fuels.
Road Pest said:
Seems to be people saying not to worry as the cars will work, look at Brazil, etc, etc. But isn't the problem about what happens after extended use. Yes the cars will run but damage to parts of the fuel system, engine will happen much faster.
Plus whenever I see cars in Brazil on TV they don't exactly look well looked after. Could be wrong on that one though admittedly.
I mean what do 190 million know? But you have to love the fact of still using a solid scientific theory of "they look a bit foriegn" as a way of justifying an engineering issue. Plus whenever I see cars in Brazil on TV they don't exactly look well looked after. Could be wrong on that one though admittedly.
bosscerbera said:
I'm surprised BP is making that statement; I can't see how it can be true - even in Oz.
In any case, the EU legislation is pretty clear about % of renewable material in fuels.
From BP today after I emailed them:In any case, the EU legislation is pretty clear about % of renewable material in fuels.
"In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.
Our Regular grade gasoline does contain up to 5% bio ethanol in compliance with EN228 gasoline specification allowance in most regions of the UK."
ChrisFitz said:
From BP today after I emailed them:
"In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%...
Thanks for the more detailed clarificaion and confirmation."In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%...
ChrisFitz said:
From BP today after I emailed them:
"In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.
"In most regions of the UK our Ultimate Unleaded dos not contain any Ethanol at present (South West UK excluded). This may of course change in the future as the specification allows up to 5%.
Why do we get the nasty watered down stuff and no-one else in the UK? Maybe they are putting cider in it 
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