Well that just about wraps it up for Vauxhall !

[iSore]

mattberkshire said:

I get your point (the MG is also a bit lame) but as a shop window it gets people talking about the brand

Only if you watch BTCC. I don't, and haven't watched it since about 1995. It's a bit low rent these days.

[Clivey]

Johnboy Mac said:

You see there's the thing, I can't/wouldn't disagree with you on current crop but...it takes more than just the current generation to convince potential punters usually. So, let's accept that Vauxhall/Opel products are 'up there' now, in theory it will take a few years or possibly the next model generation (if they build on it) to reap the rewards so to speak.

Yes, and I appreciate what you're saying, however the reality is that Opel / Vauxhall's cars have been no worse than those from other manufacturers for a while now. I mean: A 2005 Astra is no worse than a 2005 Focus in reality - both are just ordinary transport and neither offer enthusiasts much in the way of excitement.

Johnboy Mac said:

Speaking of Golfs, I was just this morning behind a boggo '12 plater petrol being driven poorly, looked good, nice shut lines etc, then I noticed the driver...deffo a good reason to avoid. Next car, was brand new Civic, looked interesting & biggish too - more my cup of coffee, the driver wasn't half bad either

I've just had a Civic 2.2 diesel for 2 weeks as a courtesy car...it looked more interesting inside and out and was quite quick for a diesel but was immediately spoilt when I turned the steering wheel. It's obvious that Honda are now building cars for old people with no muscle strength because the steering was so unbelievably light that you could drive around a roundabout using only your little finger. - Driving at anything over 50 on a country road felt disconcerting and I definitely wouldn't like to have to make a high speed emergency manoeuvre in one because you can't tell how much grip you have or which way the wheels are pointing. It just seemed ridiculous.

[Redlake27]

Clivey said:

I mean: A 2005 Astra is no worse than a 2005 Focus in reality - both are just ordinary transport and neither offer enthusiasts much in the way of excitement.

Having had a Focus in the family alongside plenty of more exotic and supposedly premium cars,I'd never use the word ordinary.

I've never driven another car, irrespective of speed and price, that had a better combination of steering, damping, adjustability and poise. It wasn't only better than an 05 Astra or , A3 or Golf competitor. I think it was better than anything from several classes above. Most road testers seemed to agree.

I've not driven the new Astra. But its opportunity is to be better than this benchmark. I hope it is. Driving pleasure and value are the only reasons it could drag people out of more fashionable brands.

[CommanderJameson]

Redlake27 said:

Having had a Focus in the family alongside plenty of more exotic and supposedly premium cars,I'd never use the word ordinary.

I've never driven another car, irrespective of speed and price, that had a better combination of steering, damping, adjustability and poise. It wasn't only better than an 05 Astra or , A3 or Golf competitor. I think it was better than anything from several classes above. Most road testers seemed to agree.

I've not driven the new Astra. But its opportunity is to be better than this benchmark. I hope it is. Driving pleasure and value are the only reasons it could drag people out of more fashionable brands.

I must agree. My bog standard povvo spec work Focus couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding with its feeble 90BHP, but by jingo it steers so very, very well.

[Clivey]

CommanderJameson said:

Redlake27 said:

Having had a Focus in the family alongside plenty of more exotic and supposedly premium cars,I'd never use the word ordinary.

I've never driven another car, irrespective of speed and price, that had a better combination of steering, damping, adjustability and poise. It wasn't only better than an 05 Astra or , A3 or Golf competitor. I think it was better than anything from several classes above. Most road testers seemed to agree.

I've not driven the new Astra. But its opportunity is to be better than this benchmark. I hope it is. Driving pleasure and value are the only reasons it could drag people out of more fashionable brands.

I must agree. My bog standard povvo spec work Focus couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding with its feeble 90BHP, but by jingo it steers so very, very well.

As previously stated I did quite a few miles in a 2006 model (Zetec Climate 1.6TDCI 110ps 5-door) when it was new and to be honest I don't see what all the fuss was about. It was grippy but the steering certainly wasn't anything special. The most impressive "normal" car I've driven, in that it handled very well, was my Dad's old (2005) Mini One. The ride quality was quite poor but it just cornered like a go-kart! The steering was excellent and really did feel as though it was talking to you, similar to how my E46 3-Series feels.

[CommanderJameson]

Clivey said:

CommanderJameson said:

Redlake27 said:

Having had a Focus in the family alongside plenty of more exotic and supposedly premium cars,I'd never use the word ordinary.

I've never driven another car, irrespective of speed and price, that had a better combination of steering, damping, adjustability and poise. It wasn't only better than an 05 Astra or , A3 or Golf competitor. I think it was better than anything from several classes above. Most road testers seemed to agree.

I've not driven the new Astra. But its opportunity is to be better than this benchmark. I hope it is. Driving pleasure and value are the only reasons it could drag people out of more fashionable brands.

I must agree. My bog standard povvo spec work Focus couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding with its feeble 90BHP, but by jingo it steers so very, very well.

As previously stated I did quite a few miles in a 2006 model (Zetec Climate 1.6TDCI 110ps 5-door) when it was new and to be honest I don't see what all the fuss was about. It was grippy but the steering certainly wasn't anything special. The most impressive "normal" car I've driven, in that it handled very well, was my Dad's old (2005) Mini One. The ride quality was quite poor but it just cornered like a go-kart! The steering was excellent and really did feel as though it was talking to you, similar to how my E46 3-Series feels.

Mine's a "new" Focus (the one with the stupid front-end), if that changes anything.

[dhariwab]

The problem VX and Ford Europe (also losing money) have is the same. People like my Bro-in-law who drives a boggo 1.9 tdi Audi A3 (ex-company car bought from auction with no options ticked by previous owner) say that its a "premium" car (whatever that is) and because its an Audi it is of much higher quality (couldn't tell me why) and it makes him look successful/wealthy. Give me a hot focus/megane/astra over a "premium" A3 any day of the week.

[iSore]

dhariwab said:

The problem VX and Ford Europe (also losing money) have is the same. People like my Bro-in-law who drives a boggo 1.9 tdi Audi A3 (ex-company car bought from auction with no options ticked by previous owner) say that its a "premium" car (whatever that is) and because its an Audi it is of much higher quality (couldn't tell me why) and it makes him look successful/wealthy. Give me a hot focus/megane/astra over a "premium" A3 any day of the week.

The power of clever marketing and a few choice bits of nice plastics inside. The only way GM are going to make it long term is to gradually rebrand as Opel (made in ze Fatherland) and invest in some flashy showroom upgrades. GM missed a trick with the Insignia because it's more than good enough to be compared to an A4 - it just needs the right badge.

[fridaypassion]

The problem the western manufacturers have is right there in your post. Buyers want perceived up market brands or they want cheap and there's no middle ground any more.

Renault have laughably tried to push up market as have Ford and vauxhall. Arguably they should have set their sights east for the real competition not towards Germany. I guess legacy costs pushed them into it butrenault, ford,vauxhall they are all doomed. Have you seen the stuff hyundai is pushing out these days? I reckon even snobs are about 2/3 years of getting into cars like those.

[iSore]

fridaypassion said:

butrenault, ford,vauxhall they are all doomed. Have you seen the stuff hyundai is pushing out these days? I reckon even snobs are about 2/3 years of getting into cars like those.

They're already there. Kia and Hyundai are now top flight car manufacturers who are now on the verge of crucifying the Japanese. They're not even that cheap anymore (A Cee'd is the same money as a Golf) but they have a reputation for quality, reliability, a silly long warranty and good dealer service. That's why French junk is doomed - it's percieved as rubbish because it actually is, and everyone knows someone with a French car horror story.

The next 10 years will be interesting. As good as they are now, I fear we will see the end of Vauxhall, Ford in serious trouble and the Renault/PSA consolidating in a (vain) effort to fend off the Koreans.

[Agem]

Ah.............I see my post is STILL running!

Ok, Nobody in their right mind is going to spend VW/Audi/Merc/BMW money on a Vauxhall!...........Yes i know the germans jack the price with extra's but come trade in time you get it back.

Mike

[Agem]

Ah.............Sence at last:-
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/09/morgan-stanle...
Stop throwing good money after bad.
M

[henrycrun]

I blame Jerry Klaxon

[dhariwab]

It should be Opel getting rid of GM. Yanks can't run European brands. Just ask Jaguar/Land Rover/Aston Martin/ Volvo/Saab e.t.c

[StealthSteve]

fridaypassion said:

Have you seen the stuff hyundai is pushing out these days? I reckon even snobs are about 2/3 years of getting into cars like those.

Have to agree here, the i-Range they offer has the hatch, saloon & big-bus market's covered so well.

While working at a car rental firm fleet cars coming in were Fiat's, Corsas, Insignias and Hyundai's.

Our local council took a fleet of 10 Hyundai's for a years lease over Corsa's and the local Police were choosing to rent Chevy Spark's in small numbers for general staff or Hyundai busses rather than use mini-buses because they do the same job and have features.

Outside:


Centre Console of a Hyundai i800:


Better than a cassette player in an average LDV?

iSore said:

That's why French junk is doomed - it's percieved as rubbish because it actually is, and everyone knows someone with a French car horror story.

I really want to disagree here, my last 3 cars were French and my dads had them for ~8years, they've had issues but nothing drastic although his mates had issues and their freinds can't name anyone running french without a glitch so either we're lucky or they're getting better far too late - unlikely.

[fridaypassion]

Renault have moved quality on but they have needed to in the chase up market. I had a phase one and two rs megane and the new rs250s are screwed together very well. They are also 10k more expensive. Would consider one that wasn't under warranty.

[iSore]

The Laguna 11 was decently screwed together with a good paint job. But it was (and still is) an absolute disaster. Gearboxes, turbos, electrics and all the other stuff you can't see. Peugeots and Citroens are just as bad. A mate was until last month a workshop controller at a Pug garage. Absolute horror stories and the warranty isn't worth a toss. Basically, they'll only fix stuff when the customer really starts jumping up and down. If they haven't noticed that oil leak, keep quiet.

It's just cheap crap and it's not worthy of your £15'000.

[Agem]

I do wonder if this is a tipping point where we are going to see a number of "Brands" simply die?

Opel/Vauxhall
Fiat
Pug/Cit

Mike

[Agem]

The head of VW that we will see a number of well know Eurpean brands die in the very near future. I see the GM has stopped production again for a week at its plants...........hmmmm.
Mike

[Loose Chippings]

Never understood why people are anti Vauxhall. I've got the last shape astra and over last 3years its never broken down. Both myself and my dad have owned various vauxhalls over the years (with other makes of car in between) and I don't remember either of us having any major problems with the Vauxhalls. I racked some serious commuting mileage in some of mine with no complaint. Never really been a Ford fan. When looking for a car I've always visited the Ford dealers but always felt the Focus or Mondeo overpriced for what they are and come away without finding anything. Have also used various VAG cars at work and found them to be adequate but no different or better in quality than any other mainstream models and couldn't see me buying one with my own cash. Would be a shame if they disappeared, but wouldn't mind if it was renamed as Opel.

Also re above posts about French cars, i've owned both a Clio and a Laguna, and think I was extremely lucky with both. No major problems with either over 4years each of ownership. Decided I wouldn't buy another French car as I had probably used a lifetime of good luck with them, and if I bought another it would be a horror!

Edited by Loose Chippings on Thursday 14th March 20:06