Paul Bailey's 918 Spyder involved in crash at motor show
Discussion
Esceptico said:
Pommygranite said:
If no one else was driving and the car had no mechanical faults there can be no other determination but that it was his fault.
I'm sure he's lovely guy and one of us with an amazing collection but he seems to have simply been going too fast and lost control and blame lay with him. Very sad for all those involved.
I think that is too simplistic. Drivers make mistakes. The organisers of such events need to anticipate the consequences of the most likely mistakes and try to ensure that the public are protected. Having only briefly looked at the video it seems that thr plastic barriers were to make a course and presumably to keep the speed down. Forcing the driver to drive around an obstacle near the grass does not seem that sensible. Nor does having the car travelling at high speed so close to the crowd - at least without some proper barriers (why didn't they have concrete barriers to protect the crowd?) Clearly the organisers did not plan for this to happen but I'm not sure they did enough planning to make sure it didn't happen either. I'm sure he's lovely guy and one of us with an amazing collection but he seems to have simply been going too fast and lost control and blame lay with him. Very sad for all those involved.
One point to be established is whether Mr Bailey had switched off traction and stability controls (and whether that had been discussed with the organisers).
If he was doing 20mph round the plastic barrier would he have crashed? No.
What I'd hope people take away from this is how easily this stuff goes wrong and how little you can do about it.
The way that thing is completely out of control/spinning and yet apparently losing no momentum and continuing to move at speed is scary - to be in a car going that fast - forwards/backwards/sideways!!
I've never liked airfields for this reason - tracks have barriers/fences/tyres/gravel and people have 'tested' those usually - but airfields have plastic tape or maybe a metal barrier which would struggle to stop a tricycle, I've never felt comfortable and some events simply don't seem to consider this!?
Nightmare...
The way that thing is completely out of control/spinning and yet apparently losing no momentum and continuing to move at speed is scary - to be in a car going that fast - forwards/backwards/sideways!!
I've never liked airfields for this reason - tracks have barriers/fences/tyres/gravel and people have 'tested' those usually - but airfields have plastic tape or maybe a metal barrier which would struggle to stop a tricycle, I've never felt comfortable and some events simply don't seem to consider this!?
Nightmare...
I hope that the reports of a fatality turn out to be false, and hope that those affected all recover.
The blame game will be split into those that want to pin the blame on the driver, those that blame the organisers, and of course the odd few that sling around comments that are blatantly just fueled by envy.
My thoughts are that the safety was wholly inadequate. The organisers would (should) know what speeds these cars are capable of, and how quickly they can reach those speeds. The driver is responsible for the safety of the occupant and himself. Mistakes and other events however will happen, a wheel on the grass, a mechanical fault etc.
If the worst happens, then the driver can perhaps do very little, becoming a passenger. At that point, its the safety measures put in place by the organisers that need to be up to the job. In this case they most certainly were not.
The driver is the first line of defence against anything happening. The crowd safety measures are the last line of defence. The safety is only as good as the weakest link, and in this case it was the barriers imho.
If we were watching an F1 race and noticed that the crowd was seoarated from the track by a 10m gap and some metal railings, people would be asking questions before they got underway. Why should this be any different for an event where hypercars are being driven at speed?
The blame game will be split into those that want to pin the blame on the driver, those that blame the organisers, and of course the odd few that sling around comments that are blatantly just fueled by envy.
My thoughts are that the safety was wholly inadequate. The organisers would (should) know what speeds these cars are capable of, and how quickly they can reach those speeds. The driver is responsible for the safety of the occupant and himself. Mistakes and other events however will happen, a wheel on the grass, a mechanical fault etc.
If the worst happens, then the driver can perhaps do very little, becoming a passenger. At that point, its the safety measures put in place by the organisers that need to be up to the job. In this case they most certainly were not.
The driver is the first line of defence against anything happening. The crowd safety measures are the last line of defence. The safety is only as good as the weakest link, and in this case it was the barriers imho.
If we were watching an F1 race and noticed that the crowd was seoarated from the track by a 10m gap and some metal railings, people would be asking questions before they got underway. Why should this be any different for an event where hypercars are being driven at speed?
There is a real problem with charity fund raising events.
They are sometimes not run to the same standard of care and caution that you might get from a professional event. Why would they be? Often charity events are run by well intentioned amateurs.
Then you add into the mix high speed from powerful cars, driven by someone of experience but someone whom I would hope wouldnt consider themselves to be Senna.
I dont know the chap involved, but I have seen his cars on the roads around here (north cambridgeshire).
The cold hard reality is that if you want to raise money for a charity, write a cheque. If you wont do that without getting something for youself (a ride in a fast car, a evening at an art gallery, or whatever) then you are a fairly sad person.
They are sometimes not run to the same standard of care and caution that you might get from a professional event. Why would they be? Often charity events are run by well intentioned amateurs.
Then you add into the mix high speed from powerful cars, driven by someone of experience but someone whom I would hope wouldnt consider themselves to be Senna.
I dont know the chap involved, but I have seen his cars on the roads around here (north cambridgeshire).
The cold hard reality is that if you want to raise money for a charity, write a cheque. If you wont do that without getting something for youself (a ride in a fast car, a evening at an art gallery, or whatever) then you are a fairly sad person.
People stating that we are to blame the driver is very harsh in my opinion, do you not think he will be feeling the lowest point in his life right now?
He had an accident, it was supposed to be a controlled and safe event, so he pushed the car. sStating that his poor driving is to blame is just ridiculous, think how many times F1 drivers, Rally drivers and touring car drivers make a mistake and spin out/crash, this is no different except that the organisers did not do a good enough job in securing the spectators from danger.
He had an accident, it was supposed to be a controlled and safe event, so he pushed the car. sStating that his poor driving is to blame is just ridiculous, think how many times F1 drivers, Rally drivers and touring car drivers make a mistake and spin out/crash, this is no different except that the organisers did not do a good enough job in securing the spectators from danger.
I agree, its a bit much to ask for it to have the same setup as a specific race track, but it wouldnt have taken much effort to have some concrete blocks, or even just ensured the course was designed so as to not have the high speed section where it was. Ive seen sturdier fencing separate nightclub queues from the rest of the pavement. I wouldn't be surprised if the fencing itself wasn't responsible for some of the injuries when it was sent flying.
Its just a horrible event all round. All that can be hoped for is that everyone recovers and lessons are learnt for all. Drivers to better review the tracks/courses and drive to them, and safety organisers to always consider the "what if" worst case scenario.
Its just a horrible event all round. All that can be hoped for is that everyone recovers and lessons are learnt for all. Drivers to better review the tracks/courses and drive to them, and safety organisers to always consider the "what if" worst case scenario.
Edited by clb on Monday 5th October 10:54
Just to respond to some of the replies to other people's earlier posts, it's not always the case that those who criticise someone who is successful are envious - I think a lot of people here would agree that whilst it can sometimes be true, we also know that money is no substitute for and can't necessarily buy driving talent or good manners.
I don't know the man personally, and from some of the first hand accounts I've heard, I don't wish to. However there are a large number of people here in Britain's smallest county where he and his wife live who both do and don't know the Baileys, and have encountered them and more specifically Mr Bailey's driving, who won't be a bit surprised that something like this has eventually happened.
From all accounts he's another of a growing band of people who have moved here who bring nothing more of benefit to Rutland than Council Tax revenue, but have very little understanding or care for the special sensitivities of the local environment they've chosen to be part of with the rest of us, or enough consideration for those who already live in it.
Whilst not directly related to this particular incident, the couple are currently pitted against their neighbours in the courts in a case whose nature might or might not give some credence to the comments made about this man in earlier posts. As always, I speak as I find.
The Baileys are accused of running their supercar hire and wedding planning businesses from their home next to a nature reserve in a tiny hamlet on the peninsula that juts out into Rutland Water - The land the house is built on was sold to them with a caveat that they absolutely must not ever carry on a business of any sort from the grounds.
It's for the courts to decide whether or not the allegations are true, and indeed whether the complainants are themselves behaving fairly, so in order that libel laws are respected, this isn't the place to speculate - It's fair to say though that the noise and movements of 30 odd supercars kept for any period at that address could be a source of disturbance in a tiny hamlet of 20 or so houses and the one and only single track road that runs up to it and eventually to a dead end on the shore of Rutland Water itself. That's why the caveat excluding the operation of any business activities exists.
Commenting more directly to this latest reported incident, the combination of the many cyclists drawn to the area in part by Rutland Water, the huge amount of equestrian activity (which is out of proportion with most rural areas of the UK), the number of tourists and passers-through who simply don't know the very inviting roads, means we have an almost unique set of circumstances that requires a great deal of care by drivers - That doesn't mean one has to potter. It means appropriate use of speed must be applied at all times as you never know what's around the next corner, or what's going to jump out of a hedge, no matter how well you know the road.
As anyone who has lived here for any length of time, or anyone who has bothered to observe whilst visiting will have realised, we are quite a laid back part of the world, and tend to drive at below 20/30/40 limits and as fast as is safe and appropriate elsewhere.....Some of the more recent arrivals seem to think speed limits in villages and towns have an invisible "ish" on the end and that everyone should hear them coming and going.
I hope everyone involved in this horrible incident including the driver and his passenger recovers. I for one will be pulling a bit further into the hedge the next time I see one of Mr Bailey's cars on the road.
I don't know the man personally, and from some of the first hand accounts I've heard, I don't wish to. However there are a large number of people here in Britain's smallest county where he and his wife live who both do and don't know the Baileys, and have encountered them and more specifically Mr Bailey's driving, who won't be a bit surprised that something like this has eventually happened.
From all accounts he's another of a growing band of people who have moved here who bring nothing more of benefit to Rutland than Council Tax revenue, but have very little understanding or care for the special sensitivities of the local environment they've chosen to be part of with the rest of us, or enough consideration for those who already live in it.
Whilst not directly related to this particular incident, the couple are currently pitted against their neighbours in the courts in a case whose nature might or might not give some credence to the comments made about this man in earlier posts. As always, I speak as I find.
The Baileys are accused of running their supercar hire and wedding planning businesses from their home next to a nature reserve in a tiny hamlet on the peninsula that juts out into Rutland Water - The land the house is built on was sold to them with a caveat that they absolutely must not ever carry on a business of any sort from the grounds.
It's for the courts to decide whether or not the allegations are true, and indeed whether the complainants are themselves behaving fairly, so in order that libel laws are respected, this isn't the place to speculate - It's fair to say though that the noise and movements of 30 odd supercars kept for any period at that address could be a source of disturbance in a tiny hamlet of 20 or so houses and the one and only single track road that runs up to it and eventually to a dead end on the shore of Rutland Water itself. That's why the caveat excluding the operation of any business activities exists.
Commenting more directly to this latest reported incident, the combination of the many cyclists drawn to the area in part by Rutland Water, the huge amount of equestrian activity (which is out of proportion with most rural areas of the UK), the number of tourists and passers-through who simply don't know the very inviting roads, means we have an almost unique set of circumstances that requires a great deal of care by drivers - That doesn't mean one has to potter. It means appropriate use of speed must be applied at all times as you never know what's around the next corner, or what's going to jump out of a hedge, no matter how well you know the road.
As anyone who has lived here for any length of time, or anyone who has bothered to observe whilst visiting will have realised, we are quite a laid back part of the world, and tend to drive at below 20/30/40 limits and as fast as is safe and appropriate elsewhere.....Some of the more recent arrivals seem to think speed limits in villages and towns have an invisible "ish" on the end and that everyone should hear them coming and going.
I hope everyone involved in this horrible incident including the driver and his passenger recovers. I for one will be pulling a bit further into the hedge the next time I see one of Mr Bailey's cars on the road.
Schermerhorn said:
Jealous that he has a collection of hypercars? Not really, my line of work gets me access to all types of exotica so I see cars like this regularly, so why would I be jealous of what someone else has?
No, his 'look at me' smugness and poor driving has injured dozens of people and reports are that a 6 year old girl has died as a result of it.
PS....welcome to the forum. Your first post. I am guessing you are part of the Paul Bailey fanclub?
It appears that you have deleted your previous post. Probably a good idea considering how ill-advised it was.No, his 'look at me' smugness and poor driving has injured dozens of people and reports are that a 6 year old girl has died as a result of it.
PS....welcome to the forum. Your first post. I am guessing you are part of the Paul Bailey fanclub?
In my experience with P. Bailey, he is a guy who, unlike many wealthy people, appreciates how lucky he is to be in that position. He is mad-keen on cars, and he tries to share his enthusiasm with others.
If you think that people such as he do charity events to bolster their own egos, think again. Charity events are usually an expensive pain in the neck. In return for the expense and hassle, the only reward that one gets is from sharing one's good luck with others and bringing smiles to the faces of complete strangers with whom one's link is a passion for motor cars.
Paul appears to have made a driving error here, unfortunately at the wrong place and time. I too have made driving errors.
Have you never made a driving error?
Usually i dont post in these types of threads but RutlandWebster i think to use what happened in Malta as a soapbox moment for some ongoing issue in the UK is crass and inapropriate. Paul Bailey was taking people out in his Supercar (read into that speed etc) on what everyone probably thought was a controlled environment. This was to enable people who only see these cars in magazines, internet and certainly not the usual car in Malta i bet a ride for charity.
He was therefore driving how people expected him to drive, fast. Ignoring his capability (good or bad), comparing his speed in his local area and some ongoing issue on car hire(!!) is not the time or place now. Cheap shot(s) it definitly sounds like.
He was therefore driving how people expected him to drive, fast. Ignoring his capability (good or bad), comparing his speed in his local area and some ongoing issue on car hire(!!) is not the time or place now. Cheap shot(s) it definitly sounds like.
RutlandWebster said:
Just to respond to some of the replies to other people's earlier posts, it's not always the case that those who criticise someone who is successful are envious - I think a lot of people here would agree that whilst it can sometimes be true, we also know that money is no substitute for and can't necessarily buy driving talent or good manners.
I don't know the man personally, and from some of the first hand accounts I've heard, I don't wish to. However there are a large number of people here in Britain's smallest county where he and his wife live who both do and don't know the Baileys, and have encountered them and more specifically Mr Bailey's driving, who won't be a bit surprised that something like this has eventually happened.
From all accounts he's another of a growing band of people who have moved here who bring nothing more of benefit to Rutland than Council Tax revenue, but have very little understanding or care for the special sensitivities of the local environment they've chosen to be part of with the rest of us, or enough consideration for those who already live in it.
Whilst not directly related to this particular incident, the couple are currently pitted against their neighbours in the courts in a case whose nature might or might not give some credence to the comments made about this man in earlier posts. As always, I speak as I find.
The Baileys are accused of running their supercar hire and wedding planning businesses from their home next to a nature reserve in a tiny hamlet on the peninsula that juts out into Rutland Water - The land the house is built on was sold to them with a caveat that they absolutely must not ever carry on a business of any sort from the grounds.
It's for the courts to decide whether or not the allegations are true, and indeed whether the complainants are themselves behaving fairly, so in order that libel laws are respected, this isn't the place to speculate - It's fair to say though that the noise and movements of 30 odd supercars kept for any period at that address could be a source of disturbance in a tiny hamlet of 20 or so houses and the one and only single track road that runs up to it and eventually to a dead end on the shore of Rutland Water itself. That's why the caveat excluding the operation of any business activities exists.
Commenting more directly to this latest reported incident, the combination of the many cyclists drawn to the area in part by Rutland Water, the huge amount of equestrian activity (which is out of proportion with most rural areas of the UK), the number of tourists and passers-through who simply don't know the very inviting roads, means we have an almost unique set of circumstances that requires a great deal of care by drivers - That doesn't mean one has to potter. It means appropriate use of speed must be applied at all times as you never know what's around the next corner, or what's going to jump out of a hedge, no matter how well you know the road.
As anyone who has lived here for any length of time, or anyone who has bothered to observe whilst visiting will have realised, we are quite a laid back part of the world, and tend to drive at below 20/30/40 limits and as fast as is safe and appropriate elsewhere.....Some of the more recent arrivals seem to think speed limits in villages and towns have an invisible "ish" on the end and that everyone should hear them coming and going.
I hope everyone involved in this horrible incident including the driver and his passenger recovers. I for one will be pulling a bit further into the hedge the next time I see one of Mr Bailey's cars on the road.
You appear to be using a tragic event to gain publicity for something else.I don't know the man personally, and from some of the first hand accounts I've heard, I don't wish to. However there are a large number of people here in Britain's smallest county where he and his wife live who both do and don't know the Baileys, and have encountered them and more specifically Mr Bailey's driving, who won't be a bit surprised that something like this has eventually happened.
From all accounts he's another of a growing band of people who have moved here who bring nothing more of benefit to Rutland than Council Tax revenue, but have very little understanding or care for the special sensitivities of the local environment they've chosen to be part of with the rest of us, or enough consideration for those who already live in it.
Whilst not directly related to this particular incident, the couple are currently pitted against their neighbours in the courts in a case whose nature might or might not give some credence to the comments made about this man in earlier posts. As always, I speak as I find.
The Baileys are accused of running their supercar hire and wedding planning businesses from their home next to a nature reserve in a tiny hamlet on the peninsula that juts out into Rutland Water - The land the house is built on was sold to them with a caveat that they absolutely must not ever carry on a business of any sort from the grounds.
It's for the courts to decide whether or not the allegations are true, and indeed whether the complainants are themselves behaving fairly, so in order that libel laws are respected, this isn't the place to speculate - It's fair to say though that the noise and movements of 30 odd supercars kept for any period at that address could be a source of disturbance in a tiny hamlet of 20 or so houses and the one and only single track road that runs up to it and eventually to a dead end on the shore of Rutland Water itself. That's why the caveat excluding the operation of any business activities exists.
Commenting more directly to this latest reported incident, the combination of the many cyclists drawn to the area in part by Rutland Water, the huge amount of equestrian activity (which is out of proportion with most rural areas of the UK), the number of tourists and passers-through who simply don't know the very inviting roads, means we have an almost unique set of circumstances that requires a great deal of care by drivers - That doesn't mean one has to potter. It means appropriate use of speed must be applied at all times as you never know what's around the next corner, or what's going to jump out of a hedge, no matter how well you know the road.
As anyone who has lived here for any length of time, or anyone who has bothered to observe whilst visiting will have realised, we are quite a laid back part of the world, and tend to drive at below 20/30/40 limits and as fast as is safe and appropriate elsewhere.....Some of the more recent arrivals seem to think speed limits in villages and towns have an invisible "ish" on the end and that everyone should hear them coming and going.
I hope everyone involved in this horrible incident including the driver and his passenger recovers. I for one will be pulling a bit further into the hedge the next time I see one of Mr Bailey's cars on the road.
The above has zero relevance to what happened.
Marc p said:
People stating that we are to blame the driver is very harsh in my opinion, do you not think he will be feeling the lowest point in his life right now?
He had an accident, it was supposed to be a controlled and safe event, so he pushed the car. sStating that his poor driving is to blame is just ridiculous, think how many times F1 drivers, Rally drivers and touring car drivers make a mistake and spin out/crash, this is no different except that the organisers did not do a good enough job in securing the spectators from danger.
The driver in my opinion had switched driver aids off. This seems likely (but may not be if for example there was a mechanical or electronic issue) from the lap before where he's losing traction at fairly low speeds and from the off itself. Will reserve final opinion till we find out if this was the case but driving a 900bhp car with no driver aids in such close proximity to a crowd including young children shows a lack of common sense IMO. He had an accident, it was supposed to be a controlled and safe event, so he pushed the car. sStating that his poor driving is to blame is just ridiculous, think how many times F1 drivers, Rally drivers and touring car drivers make a mistake and spin out/crash, this is no different except that the organisers did not do a good enough job in securing the spectators from danger.
I'm so glad everyone injured are in a better condition than they were yesterday including the little girl.
As per another poster's comments which I completely agree with - drive to the conditions.
petop said:
Usually i dont post in these types of threads but RutlandWebster i think to use what happened in Malta as a soapbox moment for some ongoing issue in the UK is crass and inapropriate. Paul Bailey was taking people out in his Supercar (read into that speed etc) on what everyone probably thought was a controlled environment. This was to enable people who only see these cars in magazines, internet and certainly not the usual car in Malta i bet a ride for charity.
He was therefore driving how people expected him to drive, fast. Ignoring his capability (good or bad), comparing his speed in his local area and some ongoing issue on car hire(!!) is not the time or place now. Cheap shot(s) it definitly sounds like.
Not really - It just adds to the opinion of quite a few on here and in this neck of the woods that where the public are involved he doesn't appear to be a terribly considerate or safe driver. He was therefore driving how people expected him to drive, fast. Ignoring his capability (good or bad), comparing his speed in his local area and some ongoing issue on car hire(!!) is not the time or place now. Cheap shot(s) it definitly sounds like.
As for the comments about where it is alleged he keeps the Porsche and the other cars he hires out, I did say it was unrelated from the outset.
I certainly don't need to "give publicity" to that particular issue - It's very much in the public domain already.
flemke said:
It appears that you have deleted your previous post. Probably a good idea considering how ill-advised it was.
In my experience with P. Bailey, he is a guy who, unlike many wealthy people, appreciates how lucky he is to be in that position. He is mad-keen on cars, and he tries to share his enthusiasm with others.
If you think that people such as he do charity events to bolster their own egos, think again. Charity events are usually an expensive pain in the neck. In return for the expense and hassle, the only reward that one gets is from sharing one's good luck with others and bringing smiles to the faces of complete strangers with whom one's link is a passion for motor cars.
Paul appears to have made a driving error here, unfortunately at the wrong place and time. I too have made driving errors.
Have you never made a driving error?
I do not know the guy , but have to agree with above i think that its great that he shows and shares these special cars with strangers. Accidents do and will always happen.In my experience with P. Bailey, he is a guy who, unlike many wealthy people, appreciates how lucky he is to be in that position. He is mad-keen on cars, and he tries to share his enthusiasm with others.
If you think that people such as he do charity events to bolster their own egos, think again. Charity events are usually an expensive pain in the neck. In return for the expense and hassle, the only reward that one gets is from sharing one's good luck with others and bringing smiles to the faces of complete strangers with whom one's link is a passion for motor cars.
Paul appears to have made a driving error here, unfortunately at the wrong place and time. I too have made driving errors.
Have you never made a driving error?
cayman-black said:
flemke said:
It appears that you have deleted your previous post. Probably a good idea considering how ill-advised it was.
In my experience with P. Bailey, he is a guy who, unlike many wealthy people, appreciates how lucky he is to be in that position. He is mad-keen on cars, and he tries to share his enthusiasm with others.
If you think that people such as he do charity events to bolster their own egos, think again. Charity events are usually an expensive pain in the neck. In return for the expense and hassle, the only reward that one gets is from sharing one's good luck with others and bringing smiles to the faces of complete strangers with whom one's link is a passion for motor cars.
Paul appears to have made a driving error here, unfortunately at the wrong place and time. I too have made driving errors.
Have you never made a driving error?
I do not know the guy , but have to agree with above i think that its great that he shows and shares these special cars with strangers. Accident do and will always happen.In my experience with P. Bailey, he is a guy who, unlike many wealthy people, appreciates how lucky he is to be in that position. He is mad-keen on cars, and he tries to share his enthusiasm with others.
If you think that people such as he do charity events to bolster their own egos, think again. Charity events are usually an expensive pain in the neck. In return for the expense and hassle, the only reward that one gets is from sharing one's good luck with others and bringing smiles to the faces of complete strangers with whom one's link is a passion for motor cars.
Paul appears to have made a driving error here, unfortunately at the wrong place and time. I too have made driving errors.
Have you never made a driving error?
Some bitter people on here as ever!
Just hope everyone involved including PB and family get over this soon!
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