The insurance black box is gaining acceptance quickly...
Discussion
RDMcG said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance...
Hardly surprising,but now the non-box drivers are getting hit with premium increases.
Not read the whole thread or looked at the link but I get some general feedback on car insurance premiums through my work. IMO black boxes will end up compulsory for a growing sector of motorists via increased premiums. £3k without a black box or £1.2k with makes it as good as compulsory already. At the moment its still based around the newer / inexperienced driver but it doesn't take much imagination to see it expanding further from this. Hardly surprising,but now the non-box drivers are getting hit with premium increases.
MuscleSaloon said:
Not read the whole thread or looked at the link but I get some general feedback on car insurance premiums through my work. IMO black boxes will end up compulsory for a growing sector of motorists via increased premiums. £3k without a black box or £1.2k with makes it as good as compulsory already. At the moment its still based around the newer / inexperienced driver but it doesn't take much imagination to see it expanding further from this.
I honestly cannot see the problem.Young/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like t
ts.Don't drive like a t
t? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a t
t? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.TooMany2cvs said:
I honestly cannot see the problem.
Young/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like tts.
Don't drive like a tt? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.
Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a tt? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.
I largely agree. However I do come across decent hardworking young drivers who have jobs with travelling hours that don't comply with black box insurers therefore forcing an increased premium. Possibly a little unfair ? Young/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like t
ts.Don't drive like a t
t? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a t
t? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.MuscleSaloon said:
I largely agree. However I do come across decent hardworking young drivers who have jobs with travelling hours that don't comply with black box insurers therefore forcing an increased premium. Possibly a little unfair ?
That's the nature of insuring a population. Some win, some lose. Some 17 yr olds are responsible, careful drivers, yet they still pay £2k+ a year for insurance.TooMany2cvs said:
I honestly cannot see the problem.
Young/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like tts.
Don't drive like a tt? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.
Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a tt? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.
The only problem with that is the insurance company's definition of a tYoung/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like t
ts.Don't drive like a t
t? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a t
t? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.t is anyone who accelerates at greater than glacial rates, corners at anything over 0.1G and exceeds the speed limit more than once..... This is where most of us find driving pleasure, you don't have to drive like a chav in a stolen Corsa to fail the black box test, the odd bit of acceleration or some bends taken at a reasonable speed will see all sorts of red flags popping up. MKnight702 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
I honestly cannot see the problem.
Young/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like tts.
Don't drive like a tt? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.
Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a tt? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.
The only problem with that is the insurance company's definition of a tYoung/inexperienced driver? Why is your premium high? Because your demographic tend to drive like t
ts.Don't drive like a t
t? Then here's a way to halve your insurance, because you aren't one of the ones they don't want to insure, because you're less likely to cost them a truckload.Oh, what's that? You DO drive like a t
t? And that's why you don't want a black box? Riiiight. Well, excuse the rest of society for not feeling like subsidising you.t is anyone who accelerates at greater than glacial rates, corners at anything over 0.1G and exceeds the speed limit more than once..... This is where most of us find driving pleasure, you don't have to drive like a chav in a stolen Corsa to fail the black box test, the odd bit of acceleration or some bends taken at a reasonable speed will see all sorts of red flags popping up. And I would suspect there is a high correlation between young/inexperienced drivers who find driving pleasure in driving a bit harder than Joe Vehicle-Operator and young/inexperienced drivers who smear a bus queue.
TooMany2cvs said:
All a matter of perception, isn't it?
And I would suspect there is a high correlation between young/inexperienced drivers who find driving pleasure in driving a bit harder than Joe Vehicle-Operator and young/inexperienced drivers who smear a bus queue.
My comments were not directed towards young/inexperienced drivers specifically, but towards the whole black box idea in general. A Lotus Elise or Caterham will accelerate much faster than a boggo 1.0l Corsa and so you would fall foul of the black box almost every time you took the car out the garage without even trying, let alone pushing the bounds of safety. My problem with the black box is that there is a fundamental lack of context, the only things they measure are speed and G, no account is taken of where you are, the weather, the traffic conditions, the vehicle, the vehicle condition etc etc. You could quite happily drive past a primary school at kicking out time doing 30 with 4 bald tyres but the black box wouldn't give a damn provided you never touch the brakes. Pull away from the traffic lights on a clear dual carriageway with a bit of gusto and voila, red flag, even if you don't exceed the speed limit or break any laws whatsoever. Or, drive slowly down a residential street paying attention to the kids by the side of the road when one suddenly runs across in front of you after their football, because you were paying attention you had the brake covered and stop without hitting them, however, you now have yet another red flag on the black box.And I would suspect there is a high correlation between young/inexperienced drivers who find driving pleasure in driving a bit harder than Joe Vehicle-Operator and young/inexperienced drivers who smear a bus queue.
MKnight702 said:
My comments were not directed towards young/inexperienced drivers specifically, but towards the whole black box idea in general.
Since black boxes are only relevant to young/experienced drivers...MKnight782 said:
A Lotus Elise or Caterham will accelerate much faster than a boggo 1.0l Corsa and so you would fall foul of the black box almost every time you took the car out the garage without even trying, let alone pushing the bounds of safety.
Just because they can doesn't mean they have to, of course.I'll bow to your superior knowledge of exactly what the boxes measure, how they measure it, and the criteria with which insurers analyse and interpret the results. Unless, of course, you're just guessing?
leomay said:
Well I had a black box for 2 years and I hated it. It was impossible to get a perfect score on it no matter how carefully you drive (my neighbour is a Police Officer with full response training had a go). You just end up either getting a bad score or driving in a way that is dangerous because you cant keep up with the general flow of traffic.
This sums up everything wrong with adopting black boxes.cat with a hat said:
leomay said:
Well I had a black box for 2 years and I hated it. It was impossible to get a perfect score on it no matter how carefully you drive (my neighbour is a Police Officer with full response training had a go). You just end up either getting a bad score or driving in a way that is dangerous because you cant keep up with the general flow of traffic.
This sums up everything wrong with adopting black boxes.It may well be that different companies score with differing levels of criticism. However the thing is
(i) The insurance companies (rightly or wrongly) believe that certain driving styles are unprofitable
9ii) The boxes measure your driving against how THEY think the ideal driver should be driving.
otolith said:
They will be looking at deviations from the norm. If you are habitually cornering, braking or accelerating harder than the norm, and they have found that behaviour to be associated with higher claims, they don't want you.
Sums it up more succinctly than I could.Some people genuinely don't realise how crap their driving is. After all, they were just "hooning", "no kittens were killed" etc etc Even when InsCos identify certain factors proven to result in higher claims, they come up umpteen reasons to justify why "their" driving is still safe
It's also worth pointing out that what they've found for one population of drivers does not necessarily hold for another; a middle aged driver in a high performance car may well use higher accelerations than a teenager in a hatchback and higher accelerations than his peers while still remaining a low risk - because he's got the maturity and experience not to do it when it's inappropriate. The black box isn't smart enough to tell whether the behaviour is appropriate or not, so it comes down to "the rookie pilot appears to be doing somersaults".
That goes back to your previous point about deviation from the norm. Acceleration rates, smoothmess, etc will be one measure they apply to all their drivers as they attempt to draw up a risk picture. A 45 yo in an M3 may well accelerate faster on a sliproad than a 17 yo in a 1.0 Polo, simply because he can. It's only if he drives significantly worse than his 45 yo peers in M3s that he may end up paying more.
Yes, there is also that, although it's also possible that amongst middle aged M3 owners it becomes quite hard to distinguish risk from acceleration sensors. Or maybe not - would be interesting to see.
I think the bottom line is that by that age there is enough data on them to make a pretty good estimate of what kind of risk they pose from their driving record.
I think the bottom line is that by that age there is enough data on them to make a pretty good estimate of what kind of risk they pose from their driving record.
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