Now Byers wants to privatise roads
Discussion
www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=504037&in_review_text_id=466709
quote:Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Transport Secretary Stephen Byers is considering plans for a fresh and highly controversial privatisation of the main road network.
well, the shit has hit the fan for Lyers in today's papers and it looks like Martin Sixsmith is taking him down..
Have to admit, when I heard last week that Sixsmith was going as well as Jo Moore, I was a little surprised..
Here's hoping.. but the depressing fact is that we can't expect his replacement to represent anything of an improvement - what are the odds on Robin Cook or Jack Straw ending up in the job?
Have to admit, when I heard last week that Sixsmith was going as well as Jo Moore, I was a little surprised..
Here's hoping.. but the depressing fact is that we can't expect his replacement to represent anything of an improvement - what are the odds on Robin Cook or Jack Straw ending up in the job?
There is a bright side! (I think!)
With the roads out of Government control, why would we have to pay road tax??? There would be less tax on fuel, no tax on cars, Council Tax would go down as they would no longer be in charge of keeping the streets clean, And the Winner is - THE PUBLIC!!
Right, lets do a little maths!
Before
6 Months Road Tax - £55 (For those that drive small cars)
Tank of fuel - £26.90
Council tax £200 (The road bit only)
After
6 months road tax - £55 Saving (For those that drive small cars)
Tank of fuel £15.90 - £11 Saving
Council Tax - £200 saving
£266 Better off!!!!!
Anyone?
With the roads out of Government control, why would we have to pay road tax??? There would be less tax on fuel, no tax on cars, Council Tax would go down as they would no longer be in charge of keeping the streets clean, And the Winner is - THE PUBLIC!!
Right, lets do a little maths!
Before
6 Months Road Tax - £55 (For those that drive small cars)
Tank of fuel - £26.90
Council tax £200 (The road bit only)
After
6 months road tax - £55 Saving (For those that drive small cars)
Tank of fuel £15.90 - £11 Saving
Council Tax - £200 saving
£266 Better off!!!!!
Anyone?quote:
There is a bright side! (I think!)
With the roads out of Government control, why would we have to pay road tax??? There would be less tax on fuel, no tax on cars, Council Tax would go down as they would no longer be in charge of keeping the streets clean, And the Winner is - THE PUBLIC!!
While it is logical that some taxes would be reduced due to a lack of service provided by the Govt, I honestly think it is fantasy to expect it.
sorry.
I honestly believe that as I have Private Medical Insurance I ought to pay less National Insurance. Can't see that happening...
>> Edited by Jason F on Sunday 24th February 15:16
As I understand it the plan covers trunk roads and motorways, those roads currently under government control, it excludes the Local Authority secondary road network.
Currently the Highways Agency (read government) either employs a local authority (Agent Authority) or directly manages a scheme. The works will be specified and carried out by a Consulting Civil Engineer. The works will be actually completed by a major contractor who, in turn, will employ sub contractors.
As things are to maintain a road The Agency or the Agent Authority inspect, decide work is to be carried out then write an outline specification. The consulting engineer then produces a full specification and tenders are invited, along the way numerous inspectors and administrators add their dubious 'contribution' eventually, much further down the line Donkey Jacket man gets out there and shovels a pile of black stuff in the hole. Then the process goes into reverse and the various levels of technical administration contemplate the repair and the ever accumilating consultant's fees.
I speak with a certain authority having some years back been a cog in the wheel making dubious contributions when the Orwell Bridge and the M25, to name but a few, were under construction.
If DETR get it right they can slash all those layers between finding the hole and filling it in, we will all be happier and a lot of money will be saved.
What a powerfull word IF can be.
Currently the Highways Agency (read government) either employs a local authority (Agent Authority) or directly manages a scheme. The works will be specified and carried out by a Consulting Civil Engineer. The works will be actually completed by a major contractor who, in turn, will employ sub contractors.
As things are to maintain a road The Agency or the Agent Authority inspect, decide work is to be carried out then write an outline specification. The consulting engineer then produces a full specification and tenders are invited, along the way numerous inspectors and administrators add their dubious 'contribution' eventually, much further down the line Donkey Jacket man gets out there and shovels a pile of black stuff in the hole. Then the process goes into reverse and the various levels of technical administration contemplate the repair and the ever accumilating consultant's fees.
I speak with a certain authority having some years back been a cog in the wheel making dubious contributions when the Orwell Bridge and the M25, to name but a few, were under construction.
If DETR get it right they can slash all those layers between finding the hole and filling it in, we will all be happier and a lot of money will be saved.
What a powerfull word IF can be.
Apologies. Rant mode on...
Christ almighty. These fools never learn. These half baked semi-privitisations don't work. If you want a fully privatised motorway system, fine. Sell the whole thing to someone and let them shove up toll booths. No state handouts, just a legal safety framework, just as for any other workplace. Do this and you will have a business driven by normal economic forces and you stand a fighting chance of the framework being sustainable (it may give you expensive, crappy roads, but it won't collapse).
But all this crap about handing maintenance to the private sector for x-years is complete and utter balls. The Highways agency already uses private contractors to do the work. That is where the bulk of the money is spent and its already in the private sector. Where is this new efficiency to be found? This kind of framework does not allow normal commercial incentives to motivate the private sector participants. You have to dream up some artificial set of rules, and everyone is instantly motivated to look for loopholes, duck responsibility wherever possible, claim as much subsidy as they can and do as little actual work as they can get away with.
The government always falls back on the line that finance is more easily available to the private sector. There is only one problem with this argument. It is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Governments have access to the BOND MARKETS where they can borrow BILLIONS of pounds at the lowest interest rates available to any borrower and at extremely short notice. Any private sector borrower will pay substantially higher rates. Finance will ALWAYS be more expensive in the private sector.
I suspect that the government has recognised that the road network will need substantial capital investment, but the Treasury refuses to contemplate increasing the national debt to finance it. Hypothecated tax is silly, but hypothecated borrowing often makes very good sense indeed. If you look at the economics of your position you can say I borrowed X and I invested it in an asset with the value Y. The total value of your position is Y-X. And this will be pretty close to zero. The Treasury tends to just add up the Xs and ignore the assets the state holds.
The solution, I would have thought, is to let the Highways agency issue bonds. They would have an implicit government guarantee so would carry a low interest rate (i.e. they would provide very cheap longterm financing). There would be tremendous investor demand for them too (longterm low-risk investment is always in demand from pension funds and insurers). The debt could be offset by the assets of the roads and therefore the borrowing would not have to be counted as part of the national debt, keeping the Treasury happy.
Oddly enough this is precisely the kind of framework Bob Kiley recommended for the London Underground. This kind of framework is used throughout the USA for all kinds of projects and it works well. Why try to create some bastard private/public hibrid cock-up when there seems a sensible blue print for a cheaper, simpler, and more socially equitable alternative?
Christ almighty. These fools never learn. These half baked semi-privitisations don't work. If you want a fully privatised motorway system, fine. Sell the whole thing to someone and let them shove up toll booths. No state handouts, just a legal safety framework, just as for any other workplace. Do this and you will have a business driven by normal economic forces and you stand a fighting chance of the framework being sustainable (it may give you expensive, crappy roads, but it won't collapse).
But all this crap about handing maintenance to the private sector for x-years is complete and utter balls. The Highways agency already uses private contractors to do the work. That is where the bulk of the money is spent and its already in the private sector. Where is this new efficiency to be found? This kind of framework does not allow normal commercial incentives to motivate the private sector participants. You have to dream up some artificial set of rules, and everyone is instantly motivated to look for loopholes, duck responsibility wherever possible, claim as much subsidy as they can and do as little actual work as they can get away with.
The government always falls back on the line that finance is more easily available to the private sector. There is only one problem with this argument. It is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Governments have access to the BOND MARKETS where they can borrow BILLIONS of pounds at the lowest interest rates available to any borrower and at extremely short notice. Any private sector borrower will pay substantially higher rates. Finance will ALWAYS be more expensive in the private sector.
I suspect that the government has recognised that the road network will need substantial capital investment, but the Treasury refuses to contemplate increasing the national debt to finance it. Hypothecated tax is silly, but hypothecated borrowing often makes very good sense indeed. If you look at the economics of your position you can say I borrowed X and I invested it in an asset with the value Y. The total value of your position is Y-X. And this will be pretty close to zero. The Treasury tends to just add up the Xs and ignore the assets the state holds.
The solution, I would have thought, is to let the Highways agency issue bonds. They would have an implicit government guarantee so would carry a low interest rate (i.e. they would provide very cheap longterm financing). There would be tremendous investor demand for them too (longterm low-risk investment is always in demand from pension funds and insurers). The debt could be offset by the assets of the roads and therefore the borrowing would not have to be counted as part of the national debt, keeping the Treasury happy.
Oddly enough this is precisely the kind of framework Bob Kiley recommended for the London Underground. This kind of framework is used throughout the USA for all kinds of projects and it works well. Why try to create some bastard private/public hibrid cock-up when there seems a sensible blue print for a cheaper, simpler, and more socially equitable alternative?
quote:
Apologies. Rant mode on...
Christ almighty. These fools never learn. These half baked semi-privitisations don't work. If you want a fully privatised motorway system, fine. Sell the whole thing to someone and let them shove up toll booths. No state handouts, just a legal safety framework, just as for any other workplace. Do this and you will have a business driven by normal economic forces and you stand a fighting chance of the framework being sustainable (it may give you expensive, crappy roads, but it won't collapse).
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
privatisation will ONLY work if there is competition. But this would be a monopoly supplier - so it won't.
Rgds WalterU
quote:
quote:
Apologies. Rant mode on...
Christ almighty. These fools never learn. These half baked semi-privitisations don't work. If you want a fully privatised motorway system, fine. Sell the whole thing to someone and let them shove up toll booths. No state handouts, just a legal safety framework, just as for any other workplace. Do this and you will have a business driven by normal economic forces and you stand a fighting chance of the framework being sustainable (it may give you expensive, crappy roads, but it won't collapse).
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!
privatisation will ONLY work if there is competition. But this would be a monopoly supplier - so it won't.
Rgds WalterU
Except if it's a natural monopoly -- like railways and roads. In which case it might as well stay with the government. At least that way if things aren't working we can chuck the b*ggers out.
Hold on a minute! The Tories privatised the railways. It's been a shambles at best, a disaster at worst. And it's killed people. But the same arrangement is about to be applied by the New Tories to the London tube...
Where are our alternatives?
quote:
quote:
how can we be charged for something we've already paid for?
Its called stealing Carl
ummmmmmmm. Don't get me started on this one... I have a problem with being told to go ever slower on the same roads that I have been paying for. But to have to pay extra to go slower on roads that have already been paid for is just a bit too much. When is it going to end?
I'm glad to be out of the UK for the last 5 years or so. All I see from here (France) is all our civil liberties been eroded away bit by bit. 1984 - just 20 years on. It really is getting that bad. Ok you don't have to have a car is what the government will say, but is reality you have to have a car. Its a very sad state of affairs. And there seems to be no end to it. I don't know if its just the UK or if its like it everywhere. I know in France, that if anything like this (thinking about the GSP thing now) was introduced the country would simply stop going to work and everything would grind to a halt very quickly until the government did something about it. Shame the UK public doesn't have the same attidude.
Arr I'm ramblering. Sorry.
Arr I'm ramblering. Sorry.
quote:
I'm glad to be out of the UK for the last 5 years or so. All I see from here (France) is all our civil liberties been eroded away bit by bit. 1984 - just 20 years on. It really is getting that bad. Ok you don't have to have a car is what the government will say, but is reality you have to have a car. Its a very sad state of affairs. And there seems to be no end to it. I don't know if its just the UK or if its like it everywhere. I know in France, that if anything like this (thinking about the GSP thing now) was introduced the country would simply stop going to work and everything would grind to a halt very quickly until the government did something about it. Shame the UK public doesn't have the same attidude.
Arr I'm ramblering. Sorry.
Thats becasue we never had the guillotine
This carp annoys me!!! I saw him last night on the news! W*nker!
How can they privatise roads! they did it with the railways, and look what happened! If they do it with the roads, there is going to be toll booths everywhere! This country is going down the F*cking toilet! I'm 19 and have got to put up with all this Sh*te for the next 50 odd years! Blairs too deaf to listen to the people, his MP's are too far up his arse to hear the public. And Blair is too busy fannying about with some dobber from Texas!
This country needs to go back to basics! get out of Europe for a start! Get rid of all the pish thats coming out of Brussels! All the EU directives on Picking your nose and wiping your arse! We don't need it! Get the railways back in government control! Get them sorted! Sort the roads. Spend some bloody money. It's all very well Prescott giving it the line on 'We have x amount of money saved for a rainy day'! Well guess what, it's f*ucking pouring!!!
'NHS, Education Education Education!'
erm, excuse me, Mr Blair, you missed a few things! Roads, Public transport!!
ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Rant Mode Off!
>> Edited by tvradict on Monday 25th February 13:34
How can they privatise roads! they did it with the railways, and look what happened! If they do it with the roads, there is going to be toll booths everywhere! This country is going down the F*cking toilet! I'm 19 and have got to put up with all this Sh*te for the next 50 odd years! Blairs too deaf to listen to the people, his MP's are too far up his arse to hear the public. And Blair is too busy fannying about with some dobber from Texas!
This country needs to go back to basics! get out of Europe for a start! Get rid of all the pish thats coming out of Brussels! All the EU directives on Picking your nose and wiping your arse! We don't need it! Get the railways back in government control! Get them sorted! Sort the roads. Spend some bloody money. It's all very well Prescott giving it the line on 'We have x amount of money saved for a rainy day'! Well guess what, it's f*ucking pouring!!!
'NHS, Education Education Education!'
erm, excuse me, Mr Blair, you missed a few things! Roads, Public transport!!
ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
Rant Mode Off!
>> Edited by tvradict on Monday 25th February 13:34
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