Time to get paranoid??!!
Discussion
Listening to radio 4 this morning I hear the Herr Blairs bunch is to set about banning hunting (again!)
Whether you agree with hunting or not is irrelevant, the fact is that Blair is quite blatantly doing this to distract attention from the mess at the Transport Dept and as a payoff to those Arse licking Labour MPs who supported Liar Byers in the HOC yesterday.
My question is therefore "How long will it be before this Governments demonisation of motorcyclists and sports car drivers (or any driver for that matter) reaches a level of acceptance in the wider unwashed community such that if and when the need for another distraction from Government imcompetance became apparent, Blair will feel confident enough to officialy sanction the sort of stuff that Meacher was proposing recently?
As I always say, "Just cos I'm paranoid doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get me!"
Andy 400se
Whether you agree with hunting or not is irrelevant, the fact is that Blair is quite blatantly doing this to distract attention from the mess at the Transport Dept and as a payoff to those Arse licking Labour MPs who supported Liar Byers in the HOC yesterday.
My question is therefore "How long will it be before this Governments demonisation of motorcyclists and sports car drivers (or any driver for that matter) reaches a level of acceptance in the wider unwashed community such that if and when the need for another distraction from Government imcompetance became apparent, Blair will feel confident enough to officialy sanction the sort of stuff that Meacher was proposing recently?
As I always say, "Just cos I'm paranoid doesn't mean the bastards aren't out to get me!"
Andy 400se
We're in total agreement on this..
Whether one agrees with foxhunting or not, it's the thin end of the wedge - banning stuff not because it's actually harmful, but because some people don't like it. Such action opposes libertarian principles.
Once this is done, there will be scope for them to start banning other stuff that some people don't like.. smoking in public places (okay, arguable), noisy fast cars, smelly french cheeses etc..
FWIW I live in a town, I'm not 'country folk' and consequently, fox-hunting affects me neither one way or the other - therefore I'm against banning it.
BTW I think, before anyone starts, it would be inappropriate for this thread to descend into a debate about fox hunting - it's not the individual issue that concerns me - it;s the bigger issue of government interfering with individual liberty.
Whether one agrees with foxhunting or not, it's the thin end of the wedge - banning stuff not because it's actually harmful, but because some people don't like it. Such action opposes libertarian principles.
Once this is done, there will be scope for them to start banning other stuff that some people don't like.. smoking in public places (okay, arguable), noisy fast cars, smelly french cheeses etc..
FWIW I live in a town, I'm not 'country folk' and consequently, fox-hunting affects me neither one way or the other - therefore I'm against banning it.
BTW I think, before anyone starts, it would be inappropriate for this thread to descend into a debate about fox hunting - it's not the individual issue that concerns me - it;s the bigger issue of government interfering with individual liberty.
"it;s the bigger issue of government interfering with individual liberty."
Don't wish to insult you Carzee but have you been living in a cave. This has been happening since the dawn of time, thats what laws are. Eg wearing seatbelts is a law its interfering with personal liberty, as is wearing crash helmets on motorbikes.
I am personally against fox hunting (hunting with hounds) especially as there are several alternatives to change the sport. For example drag/blood hunts etc. To be honest Fox and other hunting with hounds activities have brought this on themselves because they simply haven't advanced their "sport". Motor racing and Boxing would have been banned if they had stood still like fox hunting has. Both motor sport and boxing did things to improve safety and the in the case of boxing to improve its barbaric image.
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 28th February 15:28
Don't wish to insult you Carzee but have you been living in a cave. This has been happening since the dawn of time, thats what laws are. Eg wearing seatbelts is a law its interfering with personal liberty, as is wearing crash helmets on motorbikes.
I am personally against fox hunting (hunting with hounds) especially as there are several alternatives to change the sport. For example drag/blood hunts etc. To be honest Fox and other hunting with hounds activities have brought this on themselves because they simply haven't advanced their "sport". Motor racing and Boxing would have been banned if they had stood still like fox hunting has. Both motor sport and boxing did things to improve safety and the in the case of boxing to improve its barbaric image.
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 28th February 15:28
)Totally with Andy and CarZee on this one...the motives behind the timing of this latest vote are so transparent it's breathtaking. Do they really think we won't notice? 
The Scottish ban is a deeply worrying piece of legislation - the MSPs seem to have totally disregarded authoritative independent views such as the Burns Report in their rush to get the ban through. Thin end of the wedge indeed. And always the "easy targets" - will they do anything similar about fishing? - no chance.
The Scottish ban is a deeply worrying piece of legislation - the MSPs seem to have totally disregarded authoritative independent views such as the Burns Report in their rush to get the ban through. Thin end of the wedge indeed. And always the "easy targets" - will they do anything similar about fishing? - no chance.quote:
Once this is done, there will be scope for them to start banning other stuff that some people don't like.. noisy fast cars,
There was a story on here a few weeks back reporting on the fact that the Road Traffic Act has been amended to allow plod to confiscate cars that are 'annoying'.
Absolutely agree with Andy and CarZee. The problem is the buggers just pick away at it all the time. We need a few more independants in Westminster on single issue votes. Once they have got their daft idea passed there is never another vote a couple of years later to reverse it. When is the "temporary" 70 limit going to be lifted then? 
Was it a good idea to give Women the vote?
Was it a good idea to give Women the vote? quote:No insult taken.. I do find your remark somewhat specious though. There is a humungous difference between banning fox hunting and making seat-belts/lids compulsory (or if you like, banning their non-use).
Don't wish to insult you Carzee but have you been living in a cave. This has been happening since the dawn of time, thats what laws are. Eg wearing seatbelts is a law its interfering with personal liberty, as is wearing crash helmets on motorbikes.
The latter are both fundamental safety imperatives and IMHO, any criticism of these is pretty much without grounds.
By your logic, they're banning Hunting with Hounds (shall be call it HwH?) for safety reasons. I do not believe this to be so. In my understanding, the banning of HwH is simply for the reason that some people find it notionally unpleasant.
Or am I missing something fundamental?
Fox hunting can be performed without killing the fox. Its called a drag hunt, there is no reason in these modern times to actually have to rip apart an animal. Hence my post that "they are getting what they deserve"
I quite agree that the timing is uncanny, but that doesn't change my opinion about Fox Hunting.
Safety belts can cause injury to life as well as save it. In fact a friend of mine refuses to wear a seatbelt 'cos a relative had this problem.
Crash helmets. It is a personal liberty taken away, Yes they can save lives but it is MY LIFE, if I was that concerned about safety I wouldn't go on a bike. You could just as easily ban Hang gliding because its a risk.
I do wear a crash hat when on a bike and would have one anyway regardless of the law. Equally I wear a seatbelt (I did before the law came in). The point in my post was about personal liberty bit you mentioned.
I quite agree that the timing is uncanny, but that doesn't change my opinion about Fox Hunting.
Safety belts can cause injury to life as well as save it. In fact a friend of mine refuses to wear a seatbelt 'cos a relative had this problem.
Crash helmets. It is a personal liberty taken away, Yes they can save lives but it is MY LIFE, if I was that concerned about safety I wouldn't go on a bike. You could just as easily ban Hang gliding because its a risk.
I do wear a crash hat when on a bike and would have one anyway regardless of the law. Equally I wear a seatbelt (I did before the law came in). The point in my post was about personal liberty bit you mentioned.
quote:
Fox hunting can be performed without killing the fox.
So, can shagging be performed when one is alone? Or is that entirely something else? Sorry Smeagol but a fox hunt where there is no fox can be described as a number of things but not fox hunting. Pretty vital element missing. I may be wrong, in which case I am claiming to be the best getaway driver in the world cos Ive been practising on the playstation.
Dont take offense Its the wine you know. It makes me daft To fox hunt or not to fox hunt is not the question here. Agree or disagree on fox hunting is irrelevant.
My point was that the bill being introduced now is timed to distract attention from the Byers fiasco (which affects us all, given that he is in charge of transport policy) and as a cheap populist bribe to Labour MPs who kept him in his job.
For Gods sake they are rearranging Parliamentary time and delaying bills on Health, Asylum and Transport to accomodate this new legislation. Even if you are passionatly anti hunting you have to accept that this is a bit obscene given the current problems in these areas. Where is the sense of priority here?
Gone, sacrificed to pay a tawdry political debt, and that stinks in my opinion. But it's the process underlying all this that really makes me worried:
For my money, the correlation between fox hunting and driving a sports car/motorbike is that practitioners of both were/are being softened up by a process of demonisation by the Government. Few city people understand all the facts in relation to hunting ( I am not being condescending here, just stating a fact) and the real pest that foxes can be when left uncontrolled.
The point is that having turned the people against hunting by a policy of one sided propoganda this Government has no shame, nor any fear of significant popular backlash in introducing a ban as a reward for supporting an incompetant liar of a Minister.
Fast forward a couple of years guys to a point when the specious "kill your speed not a child" type messages have sunk into the psyche of the chattering classes and been accepted as the word of God. Then maybe it's not too hard to forsee a time when when a minister like Meacher stands up and proposes to ban motorcycles from roads on safety grounds his views will be applauded and asserted as the "will of the thinking majority"!
All it will take at that moment is for Tony to be caught with his trousers down in some way and the price for his keeping his job will be our freedom to ride and drive what we like.
Am I over reacting? Tell me I am and I will shut up.
Andy 400se
My point was that the bill being introduced now is timed to distract attention from the Byers fiasco (which affects us all, given that he is in charge of transport policy) and as a cheap populist bribe to Labour MPs who kept him in his job.
For Gods sake they are rearranging Parliamentary time and delaying bills on Health, Asylum and Transport to accomodate this new legislation. Even if you are passionatly anti hunting you have to accept that this is a bit obscene given the current problems in these areas. Where is the sense of priority here?
Gone, sacrificed to pay a tawdry political debt, and that stinks in my opinion. But it's the process underlying all this that really makes me worried:
For my money, the correlation between fox hunting and driving a sports car/motorbike is that practitioners of both were/are being softened up by a process of demonisation by the Government. Few city people understand all the facts in relation to hunting ( I am not being condescending here, just stating a fact) and the real pest that foxes can be when left uncontrolled.
The point is that having turned the people against hunting by a policy of one sided propoganda this Government has no shame, nor any fear of significant popular backlash in introducing a ban as a reward for supporting an incompetant liar of a Minister.
Fast forward a couple of years guys to a point when the specious "kill your speed not a child" type messages have sunk into the psyche of the chattering classes and been accepted as the word of God. Then maybe it's not too hard to forsee a time when when a minister like Meacher stands up and proposes to ban motorcycles from roads on safety grounds his views will be applauded and asserted as the "will of the thinking majority"!
All it will take at that moment is for Tony to be caught with his trousers down in some way and the price for his keeping his job will be our freedom to ride and drive what we like.
Am I over reacting? Tell me I am and I will shut up.
Andy 400se
Andy, you're not overreacting! The hunting bill is just a smokescreen to divert attention from a criminally incompetent w*nker called Byers. We should make car stickers with "Stupidity kills" or "stupidity deserves to be killed" applying obviously especially to these idiots in the palace of westminster. My patience is certainly at an end and the sooner I get one of these politicos in front of a foresight the better...
No, not extremist, terrorist, or anything just a pissed off brit....... and taxpayer!!!! Fed up with spin, lies and pinko people killers....... thru' their negligence!
No, not extremist, terrorist, or anything just a pissed off brit....... and taxpayer!!!! Fed up with spin, lies and pinko people killers....... thru' their negligence!
Smeagol: I accept what you're saying, but I don't want a debate about fox hunting - I still think there's a difference in making laws based on safety imperatives and laws based on some ideology & quite unrelated to safety matters. Both could be argued to be anti-libertarian, but the justifications and benefits of the two are quite at odds.
The hunting bill due to be introduced to parliament is a politically motivated move and as such is extremely cynical.
Regrdsing the thought of banning motorbikes, the problem we would have is that to many people, the idea of banning motorcycles could be made to seem a good one, especially by a campaign of govt. propaganda. Much of the public could be convinced that the benefits in risk reduction of banning motorbikes were worth the potential sacrifice. This is inspite of the fact that human nature, being predisposed to balancing risk, dictates that many banned motorcyclists would be compelled to get their buzz another equally (if not more) dangerous way.
With fox hunting, they haven't even got any such 'safety' rationale to pin their motives on but still they're going to get away with kurbing people's freedoms.
It is of great concern to me.
The hunting bill due to be introduced to parliament is a politically motivated move and as such is extremely cynical.
Regrdsing the thought of banning motorbikes, the problem we would have is that to many people, the idea of banning motorcycles could be made to seem a good one, especially by a campaign of govt. propaganda. Much of the public could be convinced that the benefits in risk reduction of banning motorbikes were worth the potential sacrifice. This is inspite of the fact that human nature, being predisposed to balancing risk, dictates that many banned motorcyclists would be compelled to get their buzz another equally (if not more) dangerous way.
With fox hunting, they haven't even got any such 'safety' rationale to pin their motives on but still they're going to get away with kurbing people's freedoms.
It is of great concern to me.
erm, agree thin end of wedge.
Also as people here are intelligent and like to look at evidence and facts, I would like to suggest the same is done when they consider the fox hunting issue. Before you decide which side of the fence you sit (or hunt) on look at how it works, what it does, how many it employs etc.
By the way drag hunting doesn't acheive the same thing as fox hunting. Something you should consider before you decide where you stand is how many foxes are caught per annum? If you don't know then how can you decide what you think? Also consider that by the nature of hunting only certain foxes are caught ...I could go on for ages.
Please don't flame me, no need. As it happens I don't agree with the way the foxes are sometimes killed. but People don't seem to realise how much money is spent on this whole anti-hunting thing (compared to the numbers of foxes in peril.)
People also seem to forget they are vermin. They are also one of only two animals on the planet (three including humans) that kill without the need for food. The other is certain varieties of shark. You can bet yer bum if shark hunting were done in areas populated by humans there wouldn't be an outcry (yes I realise foxes don't hunt humans).
If anyone wants to know (succinctly) why hunting is the best way of catching the right foxes I'm happy to tell you.
>> Edited by SMiles on Friday 1st March 13:17
Also as people here are intelligent and like to look at evidence and facts, I would like to suggest the same is done when they consider the fox hunting issue. Before you decide which side of the fence you sit (or hunt) on look at how it works, what it does, how many it employs etc.
By the way drag hunting doesn't acheive the same thing as fox hunting. Something you should consider before you decide where you stand is how many foxes are caught per annum? If you don't know then how can you decide what you think? Also consider that by the nature of hunting only certain foxes are caught ...I could go on for ages.
Please don't flame me, no need. As it happens I don't agree with the way the foxes are sometimes killed. but People don't seem to realise how much money is spent on this whole anti-hunting thing (compared to the numbers of foxes in peril.)
People also seem to forget they are vermin. They are also one of only two animals on the planet (three including humans) that kill without the need for food. The other is certain varieties of shark. You can bet yer bum if shark hunting were done in areas populated by humans there wouldn't be an outcry (yes I realise foxes don't hunt humans).
If anyone wants to know (succinctly) why hunting is the best way of catching the right foxes I'm happy to tell you.
>> Edited by SMiles on Friday 1st March 13:17
Think my MP might well be getting a letter from me about all this (not something I'd normally do, but...)...though as he's a Labour back-bencher who voted for a ban last time, I'm not optimistic that it'll change his views. Worth a try, though.
To Andy and the others on here who feel strongly about this - have you thought of joining the Countryside Alliance? You might not be too bothered about a lot of the things they lobby about, but they are the main source of opposition to the hunting ban, and are looking at the constitutional aspects as well - see www.countryside-alliance.org/features/020228jj.htm
(FWIW, I'm a "townie", never hunted, probably never will, don't know anyone who does, so no vested interests here - I just feel strongly about all this!)
To Andy and the others on here who feel strongly about this - have you thought of joining the Countryside Alliance? You might not be too bothered about a lot of the things they lobby about, but they are the main source of opposition to the hunting ban, and are looking at the constitutional aspects as well - see www.countryside-alliance.org/features/020228jj.htm
(FWIW, I'm a "townie", never hunted, probably never will, don't know anyone who does, so no vested interests here - I just feel strongly about all this!)
quote:For ease ond convenience, try www.faxyourmp.com - a marvellously useful service that takes most of the hassle out of contacting these people.. At least my MP is a tory so he's obliged to at least create the illusion that he's active against the government and in our interests..
Think my MP might well be getting a letter from me about all this (not something I'd normally do, but...)...though as he's a Labour back-bencher who voted for a ban last time, I'm not optimistic that it'll change his views. Worth a try, though.
quote:
People also seem to forget they are vermin. They are also one of only two animals on the planet (three including humans) that kill without the need for food. The other is certain varieties of shark.
Not quite true, chimpanzees kill other animals, also weasels. However I did not know foxes killed other than for food
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