RE: User Error Blamed For Toyota 'Sudden Acceleration'

[VPower]

HMMM!! For such a usually intelligent forum, are there not a few of us "Jumping to Conclusions"?

I won't ask how many of you are Toyota owners, as I an not sure you are?

Lets look at the facts?

Report said - The ECU says the throttle was at 100% and the brake was not applied!

Can anybody suggest a scenario (Ford Explorer for those with short memories) of why the ECU could says this in a genuine fault situation??


Well if the cruise control was set and someone pressed the brake, but the electical connection to the ECU was faulty, the car would slow down but the cruise control would try to go back to the speed set by the driver.

Would it not go to 100% throttle in trying to do this?

But the driver is pressing the brake and trying to slow and in an automatic the gearbox will change down and multiply the torque and eventually the brakes fade and the car speeds up again.

OK-OK perhaps the drivers are not up to the best here, I won't deny that, but how many Brit drivers would react the same??

Apparently Toyota have already said that you have to HOLD the stop button down for 3 seconds (I think it was 3) in the Prius while the car is moving to stop the engine.

So here we have a scenario where the driver has his/her foot on the brake.
The fault is with the brake switch that tell the cruise control to shut off.
The mechanical drive systems have overcome the bake power levels.
The Cruse control is still saying it wants to go faster.
The driver is repeatedly pressing the stop button, but don't know you have to hold it on.

Panic situation???

I am so heartened that all you lads as so calm that you would instantly know what to do is such such a situation as the cars/trees/concrete wall is looming up in front of you.

Seriously guys, I think we need to wait a bit longer and for those with such cars, work out how(TRY IT) to stop the engine if it is "keyless".


Steve E

[skid-mark]

you can cancell the cruise control using the controls on the side of the steering wheel

[VPower]

skid-mark said:

you can cancell the cruise control using the controls on the side of the steering wheel

YES if you don't panic! After all your pressing the brake as hard as you can, which normally shuts off the cruise control.

I have been surprised by my cruise control at times.
Over took and forgot it was set, then it takes off just when you are slowing for a round about.

I honestly have to say I went for the brake first, not the lever under the steering wheel!

Easy to say switch if off, but in a rapidly deteriorating situation it is not that simple!

[carl0s]

Marwood79 said:

Toyota could counter-sue but it would be pointless... they've already spent millions on this sorry saga and they won't get 1% of it back regardless of the outcome.
Another victory for the hoards of vulture lawyers in the US. Not to mention the domestic car manufacturers - mud sticks for a long time in the US even when it's proven to be misplaced.
If I were into conspiracy theories I could even believe the US Fed Gov fanned these particular flames to upset Toyota's growth curve...

I don't want to sound big headed or anything but my instincts told me that this was exactly what was happening right when I started noticing how it was on TV / the news all the time .. I figured somebody had it in for Toyota.

[carl0s]

VPower said:

Well if the cruise control was set and someone pressed the brake, but the electical connection to the ECU was faulty, the car would slow down but the cruise control would try to go back to the speed set by the driver.

Would it not go to 100% throttle in trying to do this?

No. My mk4 Supra's cruise control was very gradual. Hell, if it went full throttle you'd likely be in big trouble.
It was barely any more than "feathering" the throttle.

[Fresh_Clip]

There was a fully documented case including pictures (and video I think) of a Prius that had defied all attempts to stop it. The driver had had the brakes on for a few miles on a freeway in the US. The pic I saw had smoke coming off the brakes. The car was eventually stopped by a police vehicle blocking the car and slowing down with the Prius jammed into its rear bumper.

I owned a Prius for three years and had more than a few problems with it. I refused to start on several occasions (including when the guy I sold it to came to collect it!) I accidentally pushed the powerr button whist stationary with the engine running and it just refused to go again. I came to the conclusion in the end that a hybrid is the most stupefyingly complicated way to go about improving the economy of a motor vehicle. The car had three computers that all needed to be happy just for the thing to start and the weight and complexity of the hybrid power system is self defeating from an economy standpoint. I was very glad to offload the thing and get my WRX.

I never experienced any surging or lack of control throttle wise and I used to use the cruise control constantly.

[gowmonster]

the car in front is a toyota.... driven by an idiot.

[G4HKS]

fatbutt said:

900T-R said:

Columnist Chris Theodore sums it up most succinctly in this month's Automotive Testing Technology magazine:

" The USA has by far the largest number of reported cases, even for common vehicles that are sold globally. It is no coincidence that a country with a laughable driver-education program, and the largest population of trial lawyers, has the greatest number of reported incidents and lawsuits."

I've been living in Houston for almost 3 years now and can say, hand on heart, that I have never seen such a poor driving. Not speeding (although that happens a lot), but just shear utterly rubbish driving. Not looking in mirrors, tail gating, random lane changes across 4 lanes of traffic, driving 20 mph below the speed limit in the 'fast lane' while texting (happens all the time), accelerating into you as you try to change lanes, slowing down when going up hills thereby causing massive tailbacks for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, etc. There's not a day that goes by without me witnessing some utterly insane driving error.

I put it all down to a few simple things:

- Automatic gears - cars are so easy to drive that you simply don't need to have two (or sometimes even one) hand on the wheel. When I tell people to stop texting/ talking on phones you always get a stare and a 'why?'
- No law to stop undertaking - its scary to do an emergency leap into the 'slow' lane when some d*ck comes hurtling up behind you and you realise that someone is doing the same up your inside lane!
- No law/ guidelines for which lane to be in - my wifes mothers excuse for driving at the exact speed limit in the outside lane is 'well, no one said I can't'. The 2 miles tailback because the inside lane is doing the same speed just doesn't seem to factor into the equation
- Americans like to see an open road in front of them - seriously, I see 4 cars across a 4 lane highway all travelling the same speed blocking EVERYONE behind pretty much daily
- Americans think their opinions are better/ more valid/ etc. than everyone elses, including other Americans - you could be the president and someone will still get in your way because they have every right to do that; f*ck social responsibility and all that liberal sh*t

Sorry its a rant, but I used to love driving and each day it just irritates me more. If it wasn't for the far better standard of living, more pay, better weather, better job, better economy and more welcoming people, I'd be back in the EU

What an interesting insight into the American way of driving. In Houston anyway!

The last time a throttle stuck open for me was when I took a test drive in a brand new TVR Cerbera. In traffic I pushed the throttle and it got jammed by the TVR fitted floor mats. Scared the crap out of me! The previous was - my first TVR Griff 500, having just picked it up and drove home in the FOG (I was real keen in those days) when the thottle jammed open (it wasn't the floor mat!) and lurched me down the road. Being a manual of course I had that magic "third pedal" and applied. Stop me writing off my new purchase. But guess what? I didn't sue anybody. Wouldn't then and wouldn't now.

Edited by G4HKS on Thursday 15th July 05:08

[BigS]

TU Tuning said:

Because the media, and I include the Daily Mail in that, kicked up such a fuss it will be interesting to see the headlines tomorrow morning saying that it wasn't Toyota at fault, just stupid people. Maybe The Daily Mail should have the headline "Don't drive if you can't tell your accelerator from your brake" - that would be a suitable retraction of the original story in my view, provided it was suitably worded in the article.

I think you're more likely to see a "Toyotas cause cancer!" headline from the Daily Wail

Edited by BigS on Thursday 15th July 13:22

[andymadmak]

VPower said:

HMMM!! For such a usually intelligent forum, are there not a few of us "Jumping to Conclusions"?

I won't ask how many of you are Toyota owners, as I an not sure you are?

Lets look at the facts?

Report said - The ECU says the throttle was at 100% and the brake was not applied!

Can anybody suggest a scenario (Ford Explorer for those with short memories) of why the ECU could says this in a genuine fault situation??


Well if the cruise control was set and someone pressed the brake, but the electical connection to the ECU was faulty, the car would slow down but the cruise control would try to go back to the speed set by the driver.

Would it not go to 100% throttle in trying to do this?

But the driver is pressing the brake and trying to slow and in an automatic the gearbox will change down and multiply the torque and eventually the brakes fade and the car speeds up again.

OK-OK perhaps the drivers are not up to the best here, I won't deny that, but how many Brit drivers would react the same??

Apparently Toyota have already said that you have to HOLD the stop button down for 3 seconds (I think it was 3) in the Prius while the car is moving to stop the engine.

So here we have a scenario where the driver has his/her foot on the brake.
The fault is with the brake switch that tell the cruise control to shut off.
The mechanical drive systems have overcome the bake power levels.
The Cruse control is still saying it wants to go faster.
The driver is repeatedly pressing the stop button, but don't know you have to hold it on.

Panic situation???

I am so heartened that all you lads as so calm that you would instantly know what to do is such such a situation as the cars/trees/concrete wall is looming up in front of you.

Seriously guys, I think we need to wait a bit longer and for those with such cars, work out how(TRY IT) to stop the engine if it is "keyless".


Steve E

This!

I once had the misspleasure to be in a Ford Scorpio when the cruise control failed in this way. The throttle control unit burnt out on a motorway and locked in the max open position. No manner of pushing the brake pedal would stop the car. In fact the brake pedal sank to the floor.
Luckily it was pre stop/start buttons so it had an ignition key and I was able to turn the engine off (I remember I was a little worried that I had to make sure that I didnt turn the key so far as to engage the steering lock - I was still doing 80! With hindsight I could have selected neutral, but at the time I did not get that far in my thinking..... I was busy trying to avoid other road users + the armco.
I didn't sue though! (but I did send the car back to Ford and refused to make any more payments)
The problem of having this scenario + no ignition key + having to press the stop button for 3 seconds would be terrifying.
Feeling like you're in an out of control car at 80 mph then I'm sure 3 seconds feels like an eternity, assuming the average driver even KNOWS you have to press for 3 seconds in that scenario. - and before you driving Gods start spouting that you would have known to do this I call Bullst on the majority of you. Most people don't read the manuals for their cars and if a normal prod of the stop/start button is enough to stop the engine under normal conditions then THAT is what you're gonna expect in times of crisis..

Not defending the numptys though, but I do think there's a way to go on this before Toyota is in the clear. ( And lets not forget that Toyota's own employees in Japan had complained that cost cutting and poor components were making for an unsafe product - and that Toyotas are not unknown for their failings: just ask me about failed welds on front suspension components on my wifes Picnic (80k miles, owned from new, FTSH)

[RED_P47]

Fresh_Clip said:

There was a fully documented case including pictures (and video I think) of a Prius that had defied all attempts to stop it. The driver had had the brakes on for a few miles on a freeway in the US. The pic I saw had smoke coming off the brakes. The car was eventually stopped by a police vehicle blocking the car and slowing down with the Prius jammed into its rear bumper.

I owned a Prius for three years and had more than a few problems with it. I refused to start on several occasions (including when the guy I sold it to came to collect it!) I accidentally pushed the powerr button whist stationary with the engine running and it just refused to go again. I came to the conclusion in the end that a hybrid is the most stupefyingly complicated way to go about improving the economy of a motor vehicle. The car had three computers that all needed to be happy just for the thing to start and the weight and complexity of the hybrid power system is self defeating from an economy standpoint. I was very glad to offload the thing and get my WRX.

I never experienced any surging or lack of control throttle wise and I used to use the cruise control constantly.

sorry buddy but that case with the prius speeding down the highway and being stopped by a local sheriff was actually one of these bogus claims! his throttle wasn't stuck at all and the officer who stopped him said he saw no brake lights. this is well documented. plus he is being taken to court over this.

[MotoClark]

Racefan_uk said:

Has there ever been any media coverage of the amount of US made vehicles that people have had 'sudden acceleration' problems in? Crashes etc?

Be good to know statistics compared to European and Japanese models to the 'home grown' cars and trucks. I bet there are a damn sight more than Toyota had thrown at them.

I believe Ford had a problem with sticking throttles on their 4x4 explorer's.

[Digsy]

BigS said:

andyps said:

TU Tuning said:

Because the media, and I include the Daily Mail in that, kicked up such a fuss it will be interesting to see the headlines tomorrow morning saying that it wasn't Toyota at fault, just stupid people. Maybe The Daily Mail should have the headline "Don't drive if you can't tell your accelerator from your brake" - that would be a suitable retraction of the original story in my view, provided it was suitably worded in the article.

I think you're more likely to see a "Toyotas cause cancer!" headline from the Daily Wail

The Mail are so hypocritical its unreal. One minute they're decrying the compensation culture and then they're jumping on this bandwagon.

[markh450]

A fact that most have disregarded is physical proportions, the average Body mass index of an american is on the large side.

Could it not be that in some cases the feet of these individuals are too inflated to press the brake pedal without hitting the throttle as well? Could fat feet be the cause of Toyota's woes??

[Alfanatic]

1) Odd. Why do only drivers of Toyotas hit the wrong pedal in an emergency?

2) If the answer to 1 is "they don't, they're just the only ones who complained about or made the news" then my next question is how common is it for drivers to hit the wrong pedal in an emergency, and if it's enough of a threat to road safety to warrant Toyota being dragged through the mud the way they were, why isn't the driver training program / standard pedal layout / whatever is causing drivers to hit the wrong pedal getting similar attention?

[BigS]

Alfanatic said:

1) Odd. Why do only drivers of Toyotas hit the wrong pedal in an emergency?

2) If the answer to 1 is "they don't, they're just the only ones who complained about or made the news" then my next question is how common is it for drivers to hit the wrong pedal in an emergency, and if it's enough of a threat to road safety to warrant Toyota being dragged through the mud the way they were, why isn't the driver training program / standard pedal layout / whatever is causing drivers to hit the wrong pedal getting similar attention?

It doesn't even need to be an emergency
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/04/2...

[corporalsparrow]

Toyota needs a very public grovelling apology from US Congress.

[corporalsparrow]

VPower said:

HMMM!! For such a usually intelligent forum, are there not a few of us "Jumping to Conclusions"?

I won't ask how many of you are Toyota owners, as I an not sure you are?

Lets look at the facts?

Report said - The ECU says the throttle was at 100% and the brake was not applied!

Can anybody suggest a scenario (Ford Explorer for those with short memories) of why the ECU could says this in a genuine fault situation??


Well if the cruise control was set and someone pressed the brake, but the electical connection to the ECU was faulty, the car would slow down but the cruise control would try to go back to the speed set by the driver.

Would it not go to 100% throttle in trying to do this?

But the driver is pressing the brake and trying to slow and in an automatic the gearbox will change down and multiply the torque and eventually the brakes fade and the car speeds up again.

OK-OK perhaps the drivers are not up to the best here, I won't deny that, but how many Brit drivers would react the same??

Apparently Toyota have already said that you have to HOLD the stop button down for 3 seconds (I think it was 3) in the Prius while the car is moving to stop the engine.

So here we have a scenario where the driver has his/her foot on the brake.
The fault is with the brake switch that tell the cruise control to shut off.
The mechanical drive systems have overcome the bake power levels.
The Cruse control is still saying it wants to go faster.
The driver is repeatedly pressing the stop button, but don't know you have to hold it on.

Panic situation???

I am so heartened that all you lads as so calm that you would instantly know what to do is such such a situation as the cars/trees/concrete wall is looming up in front of you.

Seriously guys, I think we need to wait a bit longer and for those with such cars, work out how(TRY IT) to stop the engine if it is "keyless".


Steve E

This has all been exhaustively investigated by independent automotive engineers in the USA and they came up with a conclusion they are 100% certain about. So no, I don't think anyone has jumped to conclusions...except for the entire US media, the US government, the US legal profession and several thousand inept US drivers.

[ultegra]

Let's go back to basic engineering principles fo a moment.

Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?

No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).

From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.

It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.

[NalaGee]

Here in British Columbia there have been a spate of crashes attributed to the wrong footwear,
one male driver had the lace of his right foot work boot wrap around the gas pedal, when he
tried to lift off the pedal at a bend he couldn't, result he finished up crashing down into a deep
gully, truck was a right off, but he managed to walk away.
A female driver had the heel of the right shoe break off, causing her to speed up instead of being
able to slow down, ran off road into a fence.
Moral of these incidents: Check your footwear before driving.