RE: User Error Blamed For Toyota 'Sudden Acceleration'
Discussion
ultegra said:
Let's go back to basic engineering principles fo a moment.
Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
I'm sure its the same in vehicle design as it is in offhore pipelay equipment design in that you always have brakes designed so they are a factor higher than the forces they are designed to combat. The factor of safety can be up to 6 x the maximum load. What I'm saying is that you have a damned good arguement there old bean Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
fatbutt said:
ultegra said:
Let's go back to basic engineering principles fo a moment.
Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
I'm sure its the same in vehicle design as it is in offhore pipelay equipment design in that you always have brakes designed so they are a factor higher than the forces they are designed to combat. The factor of safety can be up to 6 x the maximum load. What I'm saying is that you have a damned good arguement there old bean Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
I think one of the american cases their brakes failed because the car kept accelerating so the driver just applied the brakes to keep themselves travelling at the speed they wanted to.
Seriously mjust how stupid would you have to be to just leave your brakes rubbing and not pull over
MotoClark said:
Racefan_uk said:
Has there ever been any media coverage of the amount of US made vehicles that people have had 'sudden acceleration' problems in? Crashes etc?
Be good to know statistics compared to European and Japanese models to the 'home grown' cars and trucks. I bet there are a damn sight more than Toyota had thrown at them.
I believe Ford had a problem with sticking throttles on their 4x4 explorer's.Be good to know statistics compared to European and Japanese models to the 'home grown' cars and trucks. I bet there are a damn sight more than Toyota had thrown at them.
I think it was a tyre issue with the Explorer, but I have always suspected that it was driver error and litigiousness with the Toyota story
ctallchris said:
fatbutt said:
ultegra said:
Let's go back to basic engineering principles fo a moment.
Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
I'm sure its the same in vehicle design as it is in offhore pipelay equipment design in that you always have brakes designed so they are a factor higher than the forces they are designed to combat. The factor of safety can be up to 6 x the maximum load. What I'm saying is that you have a damned good arguement there old bean Can anyone on here tell me of a car with a faster 0-60 time than it's 60-0 braking time?
No? I didn't think so. (cars with defective brakes don't count).
From this we can safely say that the brakes on our cars, Toyota or not, are more powerful than the engines.
It follows, therefore, that regardless of the throttle opening, driver demanded or through mechanical/electronic error, standing on the brakes will bring the car to a halt. And then stall the engine if drive is not disengaged.
I think one of the american cases their brakes failed because the car kept accelerating so the driver just applied the brakes to keep themselves travelling at the speed they wanted to.
Seriously mjust how stupid would you have to be to just leave your brakes rubbing and not pull over
I'm suggesting that if you want to stop a car at full throttle with the brakes and without the benefit or foresight to put it in neutral or kill the engine, it might be one of those things that you have to get right first time and you don't get a second chance.
According to the OP if I read it right, brake failure or throttle failure weren't the problem, it was failure to hit the brake pedal in the first place, and instead to hit the throttle while wishing to slow down.
Edited by Alfanatic on Friday 16th July 11:05
If the car is completely fly by wire then if the "switch" for the brake fails then you'll see no brake lights and no brake force will be registered by the ECU. Likewise in the same fly by wire car if the "switch" for the throttle is registering at 100% then it doesn't matter where your foot is in relation to the pedal.
I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
tankplanker said:
If the car is completely fly by wire then if the "switch" for the brake fails then you'll see no brake lights and no brake force will be registered by the ECU. Likewise in the same fly by wire car if the "switch" for the throttle is registering at 100% then it doesn't matter where your foot is in relation to the pedal.
I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that whilst the throttle on some cars may be fly by wire there is not yet a car on sale with fly by wire brakes.I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
andyps said:
I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that whilst the throttle on some cars may be fly by wire there is not yet a car on sale with fly by wire brakes.
I hadn't checked at the time, hence my uncertainity, but it seems that both Merc and Toyota have such systems, no idea on how they are implemented mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wiretankplanker said:
If the car is completely fly by wire then if the "switch" for the brake fails then you'll see no brake lights and no brake force will be registered by the ECU. Likewise in the same fly by wire car if the "switch" for the throttle is registering at 100% then it doesn't matter where your foot is in relation to the pedal.
I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
Yup completely true. while people get scared because of the fly by wire "voodoo" ask someone in the aircraft industry what they think of fly by wire. Basicaly it stopped all the planes dropping out of the air due to mechanical failure.I'm not saying that this is the case here as I have no idea if these cars are full fly by wire but it does seem a little strange that this is only being reported for Toyota and not other makes, if its driver error (which is most likely) then I would assume you would see similar levels of accidents for other automatics for all other mass market makes as it is a standard pedal configuration in use by Toyota. I would hope that the data reviewed by the engineers included accurate logs that the pedals were indeed working, but again in a completely digital environment it could be possible for the pedal to report that its working but actually isn't registering any input.
It is being reported for toyota because it has been reported for toyota. What sounds better when you are reporting rear ending someone to the insurance company?
1) i was reading a really funny text
2) i was sleepy
3) the throttle stuck open like all those other toyota's
tankplanker said:
I hadn't checked at the time, hence my uncertainty, but it seems that both Merc and Toyota have such systems, no idea on how they are implemented mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
Exactly my point I made earlier.Some Prius drivers have actually reported that pressing the brake has made the car lurch forward at slow speeds. I suspect the system tries to charge the batteries in preference to to actually applying the brakes.
People have been killed in all this. Perhaps there is a fault???
I have seen that video where the police car stops the Toyota and the disks were glowing red!!
In fact the officer said he knew the driver was in trouble when he saw those disks glowing with no brake lights on!
Brake systems are not designed to overcome the momentum of the car + the full power of the engine at the same time! COST! Think about it chaps??
Please don't quote the aircraft industry!
Least we forget the first Airbus crash, caused by computer failure.
Also the recent Airbus crash that is still unexplained??
These aircraft has backup redundant systems with watchdog processing.
Does the Prius???
I really don't know, but from their own reporting, it don't seem so.
I suspect there will a sea-change in Toyota design, with mechanical backup systems being inherently in the loop again, with say a totally independent brake pressure sensor that cuts all the system as an override.
Relying upon single component systems is so poor, that they should consider laws to ensure all manufacturers with fly-by-wire systems implement back-up circuits.
An Appolo astronaut crew paid the price before they completely redesigned and went for triple circuits. Before most of you lads were born I know, but learning from experience has no age limit.
MTBF of a triple circuit is probably longer than the life of the car. But more expensive.
VPower said:
tankplanker said:
I hadn't checked at the time, hence my uncertainty, but it seems that both Merc and Toyota have such systems, no idea on how they are implemented mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire
Exactly my point I made earlier.Some Prius drivers have actually reported that pressing the brake has made the car lurch forward at slow speeds. I suspect the system tries to charge the batteries in preference to to actually applying the brakes.
People have been killed in all this. Perhaps there is a fault???
I have seen that video where the police car stops the Toyota and the disks were glowing red!!
In fact the officer said he knew the driver was in trouble when he saw those disks glowing with no brake lights on!
Brake systems are not designed to overcome the momentum of the car + the full power of the engine at the same time! COST! Think about it chaps??
Please don't quote the aircraft industry!
Least we forget the first Airbus crash, caused by computer failure.
Also the recent Airbus crash that is still unexplained??
These aircraft has backup redundant systems with watchdog processing.
Does the Prius???
I really don't know, but from their own reporting, it don't seem so.
I suspect there will a sea-change in Toyota design, with mechanical backup systems being inherently in the loop again, with say a totally independent brake pressure sensor that cuts all the system as an override.
Relying upon single component systems is so poor, that they should consider laws to ensure all manufacturers with fly-by-wire systems implement back-up circuits.
An Appolo astronaut crew paid the price before they completely redesigned and went for triple circuits. Before most of you lads were born I know, but learning from experience has no age limit.
MTBF of a triple circuit is probably longer than the life of the car. But more expensive.
As per the investigation, its unlikely that a mechanical or control design error caused the majority of reported incidents; fat feet syndrome was likely to blame. That's not to say one in every million cars may not feature a problem that could lead to the throttle jamming open but that would be a QA/ QC error rather than design. Then you'd be right to sue
tankplanker said:
andyps said:
I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that whilst the throttle on some cars may be fly by wire there is not yet a car on sale with fly by wire brakes.
I hadn't checked at the time, hence my uncertainity, but it seems that both Merc and Toyota have such systems, no idea on how they are implemented mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-by-wire )then this indicates most, if not all, of the Toyotas concerned do not have such a system:wikipedia article said:
So far, Mercedes-Benz (Sensotronic) and Toyota (Electronically Controlled Brake) already use almost fully brake-by-wire systems, on the Mercedes-Benz E-class and SL models and on Toyota's Estima.
ALL toyota's have brakes that are more powerful than their engines,they will all stop even if under full throttle.Fact. Mr Obama's record on blame is already looking a bit unpleasant,with the Toyota and BP scenario's,all his government seems to want to do is apportion blame and deflect anything away from his shoddy management of the USA and its economic problems.A very unpleasant bunch the Yanks are looking to many outside the USA right now.
XitUp said:
Yup, that oil leak was all Obama's fault.
I think that is missing the point. Based on the US government statements on both Toyota and BP there is a definite emphasis on things which non US organisations have done wrong, the fact that the senior management team of Toyota were hauled in for what basically resembled a trial in front of congress where the lack of US management on the board was mentioned is evidence of this - there was, to my knowledge, no similar action against US car makers who have had similar recall campaigns in the past. For BP, the reference to "British Petroleum" from Obama shows one of two things - an ignorance of the reality of the name of the organisation or a deliberate attempt to take blame away from the US.I am all in favour of patriotism and looking after ourselves is important. However, to have underhand digs at others is wrong, and doesn't make up for the inefficiency of domestic organisations. Toyota were certainly no worse, and possibly a lot better, than US car manufacturers. BP have been the fall guys for actions taken by US organisations (although I do accept that they were ultimately responsible as the ones who issued contracts) which Obama has largely glossed over.
So whilst Obama did not cause the oil leak, he was very happy to say it was all down to someone else and not accept any responsibility for US problems.
XitUp said:
The Toyota thing and the BP thing are not at all comparable though.
One seems to be a scam by litigation-happy scum blown out of proportion, the other is a genuine disaster.
I agree that they could be mentioning more about the fact the BP is a plc, not a British owned company.
not quite,One seems to be a scam by litigation-happy scum blown out of proportion, the other is a genuine disaster.
I agree that they could be mentioning more about the fact the BP is a plc, not a British owned company.
they are both being barracked and pilloried by the US administration and congress for political and financial gain.
Yes, the Oil leak is a disaster, however, you may want to consider that it's sill far from the largest oil spill in the world (bet you don't know which was the biggest?), and for all the bulls
t from the Whitehouse, the only people capable of dealing with this is BP and it's partners.how is trying to bankrupt BP (or Toyota for that matter) going to help the situation?
Scuffers said:
XitUp said:
The Toyota thing and the BP thing are not at all comparable though.
One seems to be a scam by litigation-happy scum blown out of proportion, the other is a genuine disaster.
I agree that they could be mentioning more about the fact the BP is a plc, not a British owned company.
not quite,One seems to be a scam by litigation-happy scum blown out of proportion, the other is a genuine disaster.
I agree that they could be mentioning more about the fact the BP is a plc, not a British owned company.
they are both being barracked and pilloried by the US administration and congress for political and financial gain.
Yes, the Oil leak is a disaster, however, you may want to consider that it's sill far from the largest oil spill in the world (bet you don't know which was the biggest?), and for all the bulls
t from the Whitehouse, the only people capable of dealing with this is BP and it's partners.how is trying to bankrupt BP (or Toyota for that matter) going to help the situation?
I'm not sure they were trying to bankrupt BP, that seems like a bit of a conspiracy theory.
Luvmyzed said:
ALL toyota's have brakes that are more powerful than their engines,they will all stop even if under full throttle.Fact. Mr Obama's record on blame is already looking a bit unpleasant,with the Toyota and BP scenario's,all his government seems to want to do is apportion blame and deflect anything away from his shoddy management of the USA and its economic problems.A very unpleasant bunch the Yanks are looking to many outside the USA right now.
Sorry I disagree. Please provide evidence. I have been driving for 35 years and my Cerbera has the best brakes of any car I have driven in that time. They had a job to stop it from 140 on the Le Mans laps.
If the engine with it's 400bhp had been at full chat at the same time, I'd be up a tree now!
Indeed the Prius will loose it's braking force and power steering if the STOP button is pressed fro more than 3 seconds. As it says in the owners manual for an Emergency stop.
Also if a throttle is at 100% there will be very little vacuum assistance and I doubt any of us who have tried to stop a modern car when the vacuum has gone, would like to do so with the car at full throttle driving and in gear.
The Prius has NO fail safe mode, it is ALL done by the computers and as we all know, sensors can and do fail on all modern car system.
From the evidence and the reports given so far, for me the possibility of a simple failure of the brake pedal switch not working or not being recognised by the computer (it wants to charge the batteries rather than stop the car) is the most probable cause of these incidents.
Anyone with a Prius prepared to disconnect the bake switch and let us know what happens?
I believe Toyota are looking into fitting a master override into their system!!
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