The Impossible Top End Rebuild - 4.5 AJP Engine In Situ

[ukkid35]

So I bought a basket case, but it was cheap. I was focussed on potential chassis issues, and the total lack of service history didn't scare me because I'm generally ok dealing with deferred maintenance, gradually bringing the car back to a serviceable condition over a number of years.

However this time I messed up, the steady idle and apparent lack of overheating meant I missed the fact that this car has head gasket failure, oh pants...

As I've mentioned in other threads, pulling the engine is not an option, so this has to work engine in situ, or the car will be sold as a non-runner. I'm assuming that if I had to pay someone else to do the work it would cost in the region of 4k, which I don't have. However if I can do it myself I'm expecting enough change from a grand to fill the tank a couple of times at least.

I consider myself very lucky in that I have a PH Angel who has already given me lots of support and advice, but I thought I would start a thread here because I know this could be of help to others in future, as well as to me right now.

I'm ready for the long haul, I don't expect to hear that absurdly addictive exhaust note again for at least three months, by which time it will be winter and I'll be too scared to take the car out anyway. And that is my main grievance, I really was hoping to enjoy the car over the summer before having to do any major work.

I realise that taking the timing cover off is going to be interesting, but I'm confident that I can get an extra couple of inches if needed by removing the transmission and shifting the engine back towards the bulkhead, although I'm not sure what sort of dolly to use to do that.

I'm working one task at a time, I work really slowly and I've only spent a couple of hours so far, no snags yet.

I look forward to any thoughts or ideas that anyone may have.

[freecar]

ukkid35 said:

So I bought a basket case, but it was cheap. I was focussed on potential chassis issues, and the total lack of service history didn't scare me because I'm generally ok dealing with deferred maintenance, gradually bringing the car back to a serviceable condition over a number of years.

However this time I messed up, the steady idle and apparent lack of overheating meant I missed the fact that this car has head gasket failure, oh pants...

As I've mentioned in other threads, pulling the engine is not an option, so this has to work engine in situ, or the car will be sold as a non-runner. I'm assuming that if I had to pay someone else to do the work it would cost in the region of 4k, which I don't have. However if I can do it myself I'm expecting enough change from a grand to fill the tank a couple of times at least.

I consider myself very lucky in that I have a PH Angel who has already given me lots of support and advice, but I thought I would start a thread here because I know this could be of help to others in future, as well as to me right now.

I'm ready for the long haul, I don't expect to hear that absurdly addictive exhaust note again for at least three months, by which time it will be winter and I'll be too scared to take the car out anyway. And that is my main grievance, I really was hoping to enjoy the car over the summer before having to do any major work.

I realise that taking the timing cover off is going to be interesting, but I'm confident that I can get an extra couple of inches if needed by removing the transmission and shifting the engine back towards the bulkhead, although I'm not sure what sort of dolly to use to do that.

I'm working one task at a time, I work really slowly and I've only spent a couple of hours so far, no snags yet.

I look forward to any thoughts or ideas that anyone may have.

Reading your other contribuitions, I say get a hoist and take it in the house! An engine hoist should fit in a lift if you live in flats!

Think what price you'd have to ask if you managed to get most of the work done but couldn't finish. What would a cerb be worth with an engine in bits in it? Probably better to sell it as is otherwise.

[caduceus]

1) If you've already removed the transmission, hire a hoist and take out the engine. Its a piece of p155 once the box is out.

2) If you have bought this on a budget, and intend fixing/restoring it on a budget, don't bh about it being off the road for 'x' amount of months. Accept you have bought a car that needs some work, and give it the time (if you don't have the wedge to pay someone) it deserves. I restored mine over 18 months when it WAS a runner, because I loved the car and I'm a petrol head at heart.

3) Ask youself why you bought this car as is.

4) Get on with it. Whether that is selling, or working on it all hours.

If you want any advice or tips, I'm only too happy to help. So mail me

Good luck.

[John D.]

caduceus said:

1) If you've already removed the transmission, hire a hoist and take out the engine. Its a piece of p155 once the box is out.

2) If you have bought this on a budget, and intend fixing/restoring it on a budget, don't bh about it being off the road for 'x' amount of months. Accept you have bought a car that needs some work, and give it the time (if you don't have the wedge to pay someone) it deserves. I restored mine over 18 months when it WAS a runner, because I loved the car and I'm a petrol head at heart.

3) Ask youself why you bought this car as is.

4) Get on with it. Whether that is selling, or working on it all hours.

If you want any advice or tips, I'm only too happy to help. So mail me

Good luck.

I think he basically said No2 in his post.

[ridds]

2 potential issues. Are you 100% It's just the gasket?

What will you do if you her it apart and find it's the pump set leaking or a liner recessed in the block?

Either way, I'm pretty sure it has been done before. Good luck and at least the rain will be holding off for another week or so yet!

[ukkid35]

freecar said:

Reading your other contribuitions, I say get a hoist and take it in the house! An engine hoist should fit in a lift if you live in flats!

Think what price you'd have to ask if you managed to get most of the work done but couldn't finish. What would a cerb be worth with an engine in bits in it? Probably better to sell it as is otherwise.

Great idea, except my gf would leave me as the small one bed flat simply doesn't have any space. However I did use space in our previous rented flat when working on the heads of a different V8 top end rebuild, and here is a pic of my workshop (aka the hallway).



I think the owner of C3ERA is about to find out how much a Cerb is worth with an engine in bits - eBay 290571704525.

Edited by ukkid35 on Monday 27th May 09:27

[ukkid35]

ridds said:

2 potential issues. Are you 100% It's just the gasket?

What will you do if you her it apart and find it's the pump set leaking or a liner recessed in the block?

Either way, I'm pretty sure it has been done before. Good luck and at least the rain will be holding off for another week or so yet!

I have no idea what I would do, other than beg for advice. TBH I'm expecting to find other issues along the way, but I've got to start somewhere as it's definitely not going to fix itself.

One of the first scary things I saw was that one of the bolts/nyloc nuts supposedly holding the crank case breather to the airbox was missing. Presumably it went for a ride through the engine - grim.

[Pentoman]

Good luck!
A bit surprised by the condition of that engine bay - no garage queen here!

[jammy_basturd]

Tbh, it doesn't look like that car has been maintained very well at all. Before you spend a huge amount of time, money and energy rebuilding the top end, I think you need to take stock of the car and see what condition it is in all round, from the picture you've put up I think you'll find a lot of problems.

What condition are the fuel lines in?
Are the suspension bushes perished?
Do the brakes need rebuilding?
Was it using a lot of oil?
Are the exhaust manifolds cracked?
Are the cams worn?
What was the oil pressure like when hot?
Any gearbox crunches? Clutch OK?

Technically you could rebuild the top end for less than £500, if you only need head gaskets, and a few shims. However if you need new camshafts (£600), new buckets (£200), new timing chain (change it as a matter of course - £60).

I am/was in a similar position to you. Bought a car that I knew had problems, but I was fine with it because I liked to do rolling repairs. I don't have a huge amount of money spare each month so my Cerb spends a few months off the road each time I do something major whilst I save up. The difference is I have room to carry out work on mine. If I was you I'd ask all your friends and family to see if anyone has somewhere to store your Cerb for you. Write off this year, save up a few thousand and do a full rebuild (it really looks like your car needs it).

Where abouts in London are you?

[Malam]

ukkid35 said:

I think the owner of C3ERA is about to find out how much a Cerb is worth with an engine in bits - eBay 290571704525.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to comment on my car

Your car is the perfect example of a 'cheap running Cerbera'. I don't mean to be rude, but look at the state of the engine. It's certainly not a well maintained example is it? I don't understand how you could buy a car in that condition and not expect to have problems with it?

My Car is a well looked after example which has suffered some light chassis corrosion on the outriggers. The car has always been garaged and dry stored. The holes in the outriggers are down to TVR's inability to powder coat properly, not neglect.

If it doesn't sell for my asking price, it's not a problem. It will be restored to a standard it deserves as and when I able to do so. I love my car and simply don't want it to end up in the hands of someone who will end up filling the outrigger holes with fibreglass for a quick fix (yes, there are lots out there). Sorry, but my car is worth more than that. It either goes to someone who is going to do it properly or it doesn't go at all. Simple.

Have a look through the threads on here. There are plenty of people who have bought running Cerberas for much more and then had to fork out for chassis restoration/engine repairs on what they considered to be a 'solid' car...

[ukkid35]

Malam said:

I wondered how long it would take for someone to comment on my car

There is no comparision. Your car looks great, whereas mine is a perfect example of a car that has been neglected for at least two or three years, possibly longer, but it has been dry stored. I bought it as a project fully expecting to encounter problems, but hoping to be able to use a little before encountering a major issue requiring an engine pull. I doubt mine would fetch half what you are asking if advertised honestly. However my potential loss is limited by the low purchase price, unlike the 'solid' cars you've mentioned.

I seem to remember that there was a black car being advertised recently, with the engine out mid repair, I wonder what happened. Good luck with your sale, if that's what you really want, somehow I doubt it.

[nrick]

I think it is great you are 'saving' this one, takes a lot of balls. I am doing it with a Tuscan, getting there slowly and I now know the car inside out! Was thinking of doing it with a Cerb as well.

What would happen to all these cars if people didn't try it? Keep focusing on the end goal, and look at the cars that are going for 40k!

Neill

Keep it up!

[C3BER]

Engine bay looks good to me... Plenty of miles in all weathers and not brought out on high days and holidays. I used to polish my f1 covers until one day I asked myself what the hell was I doing polishing when I should be driving. ;-)

[ukkid35]

jammy_basturd said:

Tbh, it doesn't look like that car has been maintained very well at all. Before you spend a huge amount of time, money and energy rebuilding the top end, I think you need to take stock of the car and see what condition it is in all round, from the picture you've put up I think you'll find a lot of problems.

What condition are the fuel lines in?
Are the suspension bushes perished?
Do the brakes need rebuilding?
Was it using a lot of oil?
Are the exhaust manifolds cracked?
Are the cams worn?
What was the oil pressure like when hot?
Any gearbox crunches? Clutch OK?

Technically you could rebuild the top end for less than £500, if you only need head gaskets, and a few shims. However if you need new camshafts (£600), new buckets (£200), new timing chain (change it as a matter of course - £60).

I am/was in a similar position to you. Bought a car that I knew had problems, but I was fine with it because I liked to do rolling repairs. I don't have a huge amount of money spare each month so my Cerb spends a few months off the road each time I do something major whilst I save up. The difference is I have room to carry out work on mine. If I was you I'd ask all your friends and family to see if anyone has somewhere to store your Cerb for you. Write off this year, save up a few thousand and do a full rebuild (it really looks like your car needs it).

Where abouts in London are you?

It's not in great condition, I've posted photos of the underside before which were considered passable rather than disastrous. I've also mentioned the absurd paint job before, fortunately you can't really see it when you're driving, it's also a colour I really dislike.

Fuel lines, not sure haven't checked
Suspension bushes are perished, but I have a full set of PowerFlex to fit in due course
Brakes seem fine, no obvious problems
Oil consumption, don't know, only driven it a couple of hundred miles
Minor exhaust leak around one or two of the flange welds
Cams are not unduly noisy, and the performance doesn't seem lacking
Hot oil pressure (when the engine was overheating - 110 on the gauge) 60 psi
Gearbox great, but never got it really hot
Clutch very heavy, but still releasing fully and not slipping or juddering

I would be surprised if the camshafts are shot, and £60 for a chain seems like a bargain, but what about the sprockets?

I do have an offer of somewhere else to store the Cerb, but too far away from me to be able to work on it regularly. It's not a car I intend to restore, but I do want to return it to a track worthy state. Based in W London.

[Onzlouk]

ukkid35 said:

I do want to return it to a track worthy state.

Now you have my attention

Strip out all the parts you dont need and sell/store them, spend the money on the handling, change the headgasket/oil and track it as it is! It may surprise you and last forever?!
Save up while youre having some fun and if you still have the bug when it does go pop do the rebuild then, when you know which bits need replacing.

If i had the money/time id buy another cerb for this reason, really hankering after another track weapon.

Edited by Onzlouk on Tuesday 31st May 19:07

[ukkid35]

Stopped in my tracks by this drivers side water rail bolt, it was rounded and rusted long before I got there. Should I try to slot it and remove it, or is that a waste of time - just drill the head and the rest will come out?




All the passenger side water rail and exhaust bolts are out, I was a little concerned that the exhaust bolts are marked 8.8, but they all came out nicely with shiny clean threads.




Someone didn't bother tightening the top clutch bellhousing bolts.




All the cam cover bolts are freed up, no issues there.




WTF?

[jammy_basturd]

You may well find that the thread for the top bellhousing bolts is stripped.

Looks like someone has been poking a butterfly open with a screwdriver!

[Rufus Roughcut]

You may find the top bell housing bolt is the incorrect length and has bottomed out, for reference the bolts that pass through the two locating dowels are longer, maybe they got mixed up...just a thought.

[Mags]

Regarding the rounded hex head bolt. When I’ve encountered these in the past, I’ve had good success with hammering in a slightly larger splined/Tor-X type bit into the rounded hole and using an air gun to provide the shock to undo them after a good soaking of penetrating oil and/or some heat if you can. Or if you can, mig weld a bolt into the rounded hole.

[SimonSparrow]

ukkid35 said:

I have no idea what I would do, other than beg for advice. TBH I'm expecting to find other issues along the way, but I've got to start somewhere as it's definitely not going to fix itself.

One of the first scary things I saw was that one of the bolts/nyloc nuts supposedly holding the crank case breather to the airbox was missing. Presumably it went for a ride through the engine - grim.

Great thread and keep it up! One of the camchain guide bolts was found in the sump of mine during an oil change some time ago, no damage done, but had to pull the engine to replace it.