Discussion
This is an area that leaves me confused!
I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
tangero thanks for your help, I wrote on the 6th June that I had taken the starter off & bench tested the motor & all worked very well, the solenoid threw the gearing forward with a firm snap.
It appears not to be a solenoid problem but that here is no 12v supply reaching the solenoid, so it cannot function.
As the relay in the boot for the solenoid is clicking & buzziing when the starter button is pressed then the immobilser is not at fault plus I have now bypassed it for this test.
When I found it had a 25amp fuse that had blown I thought great, but now I will have to find out "Why" its blown
Thats why its so puzzling to me, also the "Seach"being down atm is not helping. as I said tangero I do appreciate your & evryone's input as it does make me think in the right way;)
Just realised what a silly thing I wrote earlier regarding the Fuse to relay issue, all I have to do is take the fuse out ,if the relay does not work then the power is getting to the fuse first ...Doh ,I'd better have a strong coffee to think again.
It appears not to be a solenoid problem but that here is no 12v supply reaching the solenoid, so it cannot function.
As the relay in the boot for the solenoid is clicking & buzziing when the starter button is pressed then the immobilser is not at fault plus I have now bypassed it for this test.
When I found it had a 25amp fuse that had blown I thought great, but now I will have to find out "Why" its blown
Thats why its so puzzling to me, also the "Seach"being down atm is not helping. as I said tangero I do appreciate your & evryone's input as it does make me think in the right way;)
Just realised what a silly thing I wrote earlier regarding the Fuse to relay issue, all I have to do is take the fuse out ,if the relay does not work then the power is getting to the fuse first ...Doh ,I'd better have a strong coffee to think again.
gerradiuk said:
tangero thanks for your help, I wrote on the 6th June that I had taken the starter off & bench tested the motor & all worked very well, the solenoid threw the gearing forward with a firm snap.
It appears not to be a solenoid problem but that here is no 12v supply reaching the solenoid, so it cannot function.
Ahh - sorry, I missed that.It appears not to be a solenoid problem but that here is no 12v supply reaching the solenoid, so it cannot function.
gerradiuk said:
As the relay in the boot for the solenoid is clicking & buzziing when the starter button is pressed then the immobilser is not at fault plus I have now bypassed it for this test.
When I found it had a 25amp fuse that had blown I thought great, but now I will have to find out "Why" its blown
Thats why its so puzzling to me, also the "Seach"being down atm is not helping. as I said tangero I do appreciate your & evryone's input as it does make me think in the right way;)
Just realised what a silly thing I wrote earlier regarding the Fuse to relay issue, all I have to do is take the fuse out ,if the relay does not work then the power is getting to the fuse first ...Doh ,I'd better have a strong coffee to think again.
When I had a similar problem, I found that someone had added a relay with an inline fues in the wiring harness under the passenger side dashboard. Presumably with intention of providing a direct feed to the solenoid. The fuse holder was corroded and had ceased conducting. It might just be worth physically tracing your wiring harness through from the boot to see if there has been any modification. When I found it had a 25amp fuse that had blown I thought great, but now I will have to find out "Why" its blown
Thats why its so puzzling to me, also the "Seach"being down atm is not helping. as I said tangero I do appreciate your & evryone's input as it does make me think in the right way;)
Just realised what a silly thing I wrote earlier regarding the Fuse to relay issue, all I have to do is take the fuse out ,if the relay does not work then the power is getting to the fuse first ...Doh ,I'd better have a strong coffee to think again.
Given what you have already checked, there has to be a bad connection, dry joint or broken wire somewhere I would think.
Gazzab said:
This is an area that leaves me confused!
I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
Mine did this,started first time when cold.When car was warm,just clicked a few times then started.In the end the starter just gave up.Put a new starter on and alls fine.I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
Right, hold the bus, this is confusing. Let's go through this a step at a time.
OP. No other battery connected, everything standard. You switch on ignition, press black button, what happens?
from what you say, you appear to hear the relay, the starter motor whirrs, but the engine doesn't turn over. Is that correct?
If so that means power is reaching the solenoid: the starter motor cannot turn over at all otherwise. If the starter is whirring but not turning the engine, there are two possible reasons:
1. The reduction gear is buggered. Mine did this, and it was because the 4 screws holding the reduction gear into the starter body had all fallen out (I didn't put them in, honest!). I have another secondhand starter that does the same, but that's because the reduction gear itself is knacked.
2. There is a resistance in the solenoid feed: is getting power, but not enough. This is the reason some owners put in a bypass relay to provide 12 nice juicy volts sraight to the solenoid.
Either of those is a completely different problem from the problem you posted, that "the solenoid doesn't work" so diagnosis isn't easy!
You say that you bench tested the starter and it all worked ok, the reduction gear throwing forward etc. In my mind, that leads me to suspect the second problem above - on the bench, wired straight to a battery, it's fine, but on the car, it's getting power, but not enough.
I think you need to look for resistance in your wiring connectors etc (including the earth strap from the engine back to the chassis) before maybe trying a bypass relay.
OP. No other battery connected, everything standard. You switch on ignition, press black button, what happens?
from what you say, you appear to hear the relay, the starter motor whirrs, but the engine doesn't turn over. Is that correct?
If so that means power is reaching the solenoid: the starter motor cannot turn over at all otherwise. If the starter is whirring but not turning the engine, there are two possible reasons:
1. The reduction gear is buggered. Mine did this, and it was because the 4 screws holding the reduction gear into the starter body had all fallen out (I didn't put them in, honest!). I have another secondhand starter that does the same, but that's because the reduction gear itself is knacked.
2. There is a resistance in the solenoid feed: is getting power, but not enough. This is the reason some owners put in a bypass relay to provide 12 nice juicy volts sraight to the solenoid.
Either of those is a completely different problem from the problem you posted, that "the solenoid doesn't work" so diagnosis isn't easy!
You say that you bench tested the starter and it all worked ok, the reduction gear throwing forward etc. In my mind, that leads me to suspect the second problem above - on the bench, wired straight to a battery, it's fine, but on the car, it's getting power, but not enough.
I think you need to look for resistance in your wiring connectors etc (including the earth strap from the engine back to the chassis) before maybe trying a bypass relay.
Right today I have put a direct live feed to the solenoid switch & a direct earth from battery neg terminal to the starter motor body, I have also tried tapping it with a extension bar & all i get is
Well as TVRgit rightly pointed it my descriptive powers are not great so here is a video clip of whats happening!
Well as TVRgit rightly pointed it my descriptive powers are not great so here is a video clip of whats happening!
OK so we hear the starter is whirring but not turning the engine, so there are two possible reasons as I posted earlier:
1. The reduction gear is buggered, or
2. There is a resistance in the solenoid feed: it's getting power, but not enough.
If you are using a direct feed and earth (and assuming you used a right good earth like a jump lead to earth the starter, not a puny bit of wire that won't carry enough current to earth it properly), then the answer is most probably (1) above.
That is exactly what mine sounded like when the reduction gear fell off the end of the motor shaft, I'm afraid!
1. The reduction gear is buggered, or
2. There is a resistance in the solenoid feed: it's getting power, but not enough.
If you are using a direct feed and earth (and assuming you used a right good earth like a jump lead to earth the starter, not a puny bit of wire that won't carry enough current to earth it properly), then the answer is most probably (1) above.
That is exactly what mine sounded like when the reduction gear fell off the end of the motor shaft, I'm afraid!
Thanks yet again Tvrgit , think you are bang on the money as I found this thread from Ridds
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
& sounds the same as you have pointed out.
I shall whip the bugger out & take it to a local starter/alternator workshop.
I used a jump lead to the starter boby ,then a jump lead to the chassis earth point by the N/side passenger suspension chassis, you can see the red lead over the battery going to the starter in the pic.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
& sounds the same as you have pointed out.
I shall whip the bugger out & take it to a local starter/alternator workshop.
I used a jump lead to the starter boby ,then a jump lead to the chassis earth point by the N/side passenger suspension chassis, you can see the red lead over the battery going to the starter in the pic.
Gazzab said:
This is an area that leaves me confused!
I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
I recently had mine replaced for a reconditioned item and after a couple of weeks behaved as yours, Gazzab.I have had my starter rebuilt and have had an additional relay etc added. My starter / relay will sometimes just click. This only happens when the car is warm. Normally I give it 2 or 3 tries and then it works fine.
Is this a relay, a wiring, starter or immobiliser issue I wonder....
It got a little worse over the next couple of weeks but was always 100% when cold.
Changed out under warranty and now been fine since.
mart 63 said:
Its a proper one,the tvr garage couldnt believe how cheap it was.It fitted spot on and the same as the one that came off.If you think its too cheap i could get one and sell it to you for £200 if it would make you feel better.
Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
mart just phoned Andy & he can get the one you said @£130 del which is fine but its a 1.4kw,its quite a lot less than the original spec,its great price but I'm wondering how long would that last ? Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
Here's the 2nd. I too have starter issues. Ridds kindly pointed out that my one loud click and no dimming lights suggest it could be a stuffed solenoid.
These buggers hard to get out? I do have a spare?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
My thread.
These buggers hard to get out? I do have a spare?
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
My thread.
Well we have lift off!!
I did another bench test & that made me even more confused as yet again all worked fine, I put it into another engine bay by just resting onto the other car's engine block was good enough to make the earth contact, flicked the live lead aginst the terminals & evrything worked
I thought sod this for a game & went to a good electrical workshop.
He did some tests & the motor & solenoid were spot on, the shaft that
the clutch holds was fine & it only turned one way as its meant to , it spiralled up the shaft as its supposed to...BUT it was NOT extending out far enough so no contact with the flywheel!!
Just a normal bench test shows all is fine.
So I have bought a recon starter & still have my old one, I will get that refurbed at a later date.Thanks for all the help here!
Krustious I found it quite straight forward, ist thing disconnect the battery + lead & place a thick towel or sack over the battery.
Tuck the + battery lead away.
Take off the front panel just under the windscreen 2 allen bolts & slide back from the screen & up out of the way.
Take off the long rubber hose's & air filter housing
Take off the air box nearest the battery, remove the small rubber hose at the back.
Take off the silicone pipe nearest the screen completely off so you can see the throttle pot, plug all the silicone pipes with clean rags & especially the exposed throttle body, in case you drop anything !!
Try & push all the pipes/cables up to the screen & make a gap between the screen base & the rocker cover end, as this is where you have wriggle the starter through.
You should now see the starter, mine had two 10mm allen bolts holding it, I used 2 3/4" drive ext bars 10" & a 8" with a 10mm allen key head socket.
When these are finger tight reach down & take them out making sure to collect the washer's.
It will fall of & slide away, before anything else stuff a old tea towel into the gap where the flywheel is now showing ,if you drop anything in there you had it!
Now manoeuvre the motor so the rear is facing you, lodge a piece of wood against it to stop it rolling about & you will see the 2 large red wire's fixed by a 12mm nut,take this off & tuck the red leads away,then on the solenoid there is a small black lead attached by a spade clip take this off.
Now the fun, pull the motor up to the gap & move the wood block underneath it & wedge it there so it props the motor,or you can get an old wire coat hanger & push it through the bolt holes so you can pull it through the gap, it will come out but make sure you do not drop it.
When you have fixed or renewed it its the reverse.
Hope I have not missed anything?
Save your self some time & take it to a proper electrical workshop that has the proper machines to test it properly, I wish I had.
HTH
I did another bench test & that made me even more confused as yet again all worked fine, I put it into another engine bay by just resting onto the other car's engine block was good enough to make the earth contact, flicked the live lead aginst the terminals & evrything worked
I thought sod this for a game & went to a good electrical workshop.
He did some tests & the motor & solenoid were spot on, the shaft that
the clutch holds was fine & it only turned one way as its meant to , it spiralled up the shaft as its supposed to...BUT it was NOT extending out far enough so no contact with the flywheel!!
Just a normal bench test shows all is fine.
So I have bought a recon starter & still have my old one, I will get that refurbed at a later date.Thanks for all the help here!
Krustious I found it quite straight forward, ist thing disconnect the battery + lead & place a thick towel or sack over the battery.
Tuck the + battery lead away.
Take off the front panel just under the windscreen 2 allen bolts & slide back from the screen & up out of the way.
Take off the long rubber hose's & air filter housing
Take off the air box nearest the battery, remove the small rubber hose at the back.
Take off the silicone pipe nearest the screen completely off so you can see the throttle pot, plug all the silicone pipes with clean rags & especially the exposed throttle body, in case you drop anything !!
Try & push all the pipes/cables up to the screen & make a gap between the screen base & the rocker cover end, as this is where you have wriggle the starter through.
You should now see the starter, mine had two 10mm allen bolts holding it, I used 2 3/4" drive ext bars 10" & a 8" with a 10mm allen key head socket.
When these are finger tight reach down & take them out making sure to collect the washer's.
It will fall of & slide away, before anything else stuff a old tea towel into the gap where the flywheel is now showing ,if you drop anything in there you had it!
Now manoeuvre the motor so the rear is facing you, lodge a piece of wood against it to stop it rolling about & you will see the 2 large red wire's fixed by a 12mm nut,take this off & tuck the red leads away,then on the solenoid there is a small black lead attached by a spade clip take this off.
Now the fun, pull the motor up to the gap & move the wood block underneath it & wedge it there so it props the motor,or you can get an old wire coat hanger & push it through the bolt holes so you can pull it through the gap, it will come out but make sure you do not drop it.
When you have fixed or renewed it its the reverse.
Hope I have not missed anything?
Save your self some time & take it to a proper electrical workshop that has the proper machines to test it properly, I wish I had.
HTH
gerradiuk said:
Well we have lift off!!
I did another bench test & that made me even more confused as yet again all worked fine, I put it into another engine bay by just resting onto the other car's engine block was good enough to make the earth contact, flicked the live lead aginst the terminals & evrything worked
I thought sod this for a game & went to a good electrical workshop.
He did some tests & the motor & solenoid were spot on, the shaft that
the clutch holds was fine & it only turned one way as its meant to , it spiralled up the shaft as its supposed to...BUT it was NOT extending out far enough so no contact with the flywheel!!
Just a normal bench test shows all is fine.
So I have bought a recon starter & still have my old one, I will get that refurbed at a later date.Thanks for all the help here!
Krustious I found it quite straight forward, ist thing disconnect the battery + lead & place a thick towel or sack over the battery.
Tuck the + battery lead away.
Take off the front panel just under the windscreen 2 allen bolts & slide back from the screen & up out of the way.
Take off the long rubber hose's & air filter housing
Take off the air box nearest the battery, remove the small rubber hose at the back.
Take off the silicone pipe nearest the screen completely off so you can see the throttle pot, plug all the silicone pipes with clean rags & especially the exposed throttle body, in case you drop anything !!
Try & push all the pipes/cables up to the screen & make a gap between the screen base & the rocker cover end, as this is where you have wriggle the starter through.
You should now see the starter, mine had two 10mm allen bolts holding it, I used 2 3/4" drive ext bars 10" & a 8" with a 10mm allen key head socket.
When these are finger tight reach down & take them out making sure to collect the washer's.
It will fall of & slide away, before anything else stuff a old tea towel into the gap where the flywheel is now showing ,if you drop anything in there you had it!
Now manoeuvre the motor so the rear is facing you, lodge a piece of wood against it to stop it rolling about & you will see the 2 large red wire's fixed by a 12mm nut,take this off & tuck the red leads away,then on the solenoid there is a small black lead attached by a spade clip take this off.
Now the fun, pull the motor up to the gap & move the wood block underneath it & wedge it there so it props the motor,or you can get an old wire coat hanger & push it through the bolt holes so you can pull it through the gap, it will come out but make sure you do not drop it.
When you have fixed or renewed it its the reverse.
Hope I have not missed anything?
Save your self some time & take it to a proper electrical workshop that has the proper machines to test it properly, I wish I had.
HTH
Thanks Gerradiuk. Thats a great fast guide to whipping the bugger out. I did another bench test & that made me even more confused as yet again all worked fine, I put it into another engine bay by just resting onto the other car's engine block was good enough to make the earth contact, flicked the live lead aginst the terminals & evrything worked
I thought sod this for a game & went to a good electrical workshop.
He did some tests & the motor & solenoid were spot on, the shaft that
the clutch holds was fine & it only turned one way as its meant to , it spiralled up the shaft as its supposed to...BUT it was NOT extending out far enough so no contact with the flywheel!!
Just a normal bench test shows all is fine.
So I have bought a recon starter & still have my old one, I will get that refurbed at a later date.Thanks for all the help here!
Krustious I found it quite straight forward, ist thing disconnect the battery + lead & place a thick towel or sack over the battery.
Tuck the + battery lead away.
Take off the front panel just under the windscreen 2 allen bolts & slide back from the screen & up out of the way.
Take off the long rubber hose's & air filter housing
Take off the air box nearest the battery, remove the small rubber hose at the back.
Take off the silicone pipe nearest the screen completely off so you can see the throttle pot, plug all the silicone pipes with clean rags & especially the exposed throttle body, in case you drop anything !!
Try & push all the pipes/cables up to the screen & make a gap between the screen base & the rocker cover end, as this is where you have wriggle the starter through.
You should now see the starter, mine had two 10mm allen bolts holding it, I used 2 3/4" drive ext bars 10" & a 8" with a 10mm allen key head socket.
When these are finger tight reach down & take them out making sure to collect the washer's.
It will fall of & slide away, before anything else stuff a old tea towel into the gap where the flywheel is now showing ,if you drop anything in there you had it!
Now manoeuvre the motor so the rear is facing you, lodge a piece of wood against it to stop it rolling about & you will see the 2 large red wire's fixed by a 12mm nut,take this off & tuck the red leads away,then on the solenoid there is a small black lead attached by a spade clip take this off.
Now the fun, pull the motor up to the gap & move the wood block underneath it & wedge it there so it props the motor,or you can get an old wire coat hanger & push it through the bolt holes so you can pull it through the gap, it will come out but make sure you do not drop it.
When you have fixed or renewed it its the reverse.
Hope I have not missed anything?
Save your self some time & take it to a proper electrical workshop that has the proper machines to test it properly, I wish I had.
HTH
Hope you get sorted and back on the road soon.
All this sunshine and mines just sitting there. gutting...
Now...... I get why I needed to disconnect the battery and make sure the battery was covered 
!
So, managed to get the old starter out, those nuts were well and truly rusted on, but after a good soak in WD40, they shifted.
Once the nuts were undone it took about an hour from start to finish.
So , new starter in, everything put back, then it was the moment of truth, will it start?
On the button, turned over really really fast. So I can see now, the old one had been going for a while I think.
So, thanks to everyone that helped and advised.
We are back on the road, I will be using her in the next few weeks as a daily car, so glad it's sorted now.... Rather than later.
I owe you all a beer
Mark
!So, managed to get the old starter out, those nuts were well and truly rusted on, but after a good soak in WD40, they shifted.
Once the nuts were undone it took about an hour from start to finish.
So , new starter in, everything put back, then it was the moment of truth, will it start?
On the button, turned over really really fast. So I can see now, the old one had been going for a while I think.
So, thanks to everyone that helped and advised.
We are back on the road, I will be using her in the next few weeks as a daily car, so glad it's sorted now.... Rather than later.
I owe you all a beer
Mark
mart 63 said:
Its a proper one,the tvr garage couldnt believe how cheap it was.It fitted spot on and the same as the one that came off.If you think its too cheap i could get one and sell it to you for £200 if it would make you feel better.
Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
Just wondering if this is still working ok? Mine packed up this morning. Probably asking alot of it to turn over an LS anyway so i was thinking get mine rebuilt. However i don't know if mine is the original higher power 2.5kw or the newer replacement 1.4kw type? So if this is still spinning it's engine over ok then i might give one a go?Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
I have since covered mine in this http://www.agriemach.com/c74/aluminised-heat-barri...
I also replaced the earth leads with 35mm welding cable.
I also replaced the earth leads with 35mm welding cable.
R 6UY S said:
mart 63 said:
Its a proper one,the tvr garage couldnt believe how cheap it was.It fitted spot on and the same as the one that came off.If you think its too cheap i could get one and sell it to you for £200 if it would make you feel better.
Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
Just wondering if this is still working ok? Mine packed up this morning. Probably asking alot of it to turn over an LS anyway so i was thinking get mine rebuilt. However i don't know if mine is the original higher power 2.5kw or the newer replacement 1.4kw type? So if this is still spinning it's engine over ok then i might give one a go?Clwyd Auto Electrical 01978 762093 part number S114-461 ask for Andy
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff