4.5 vs 4.0

[shibby!]

Hello,

i have noticed a few Cerbs for sale recently, i have just sold my M3, and looking for a 15k that will hold its value reasonably well, something i should be able to work on myself.

How different are these cars? reliability wise, and speed?

[Obiwonkeyblokey]

chalk and cheese and with respect its been done a lot on here so make a cuppa and have a browse through.

then go and buy a 4.5

[jackwibble]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=8&a...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=6&a...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=15&...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=125...

A bit of light reading for you .... I was bored...

[shibby!]

That's some research!!! Thanks.

I better make some tea!

[Mr Cerbera]

... and what's wrong with a 4.2 ??

[ukkid35]

It's not just the engines that are different. From the factory the SpeedSix was set up to be more of a Grand Tourer, with more compliant suspension, different wheels/tyres, and supposedly a slower rack (but I'm far from convinced by that claim). Obviously all that can change over time, but understanding the original ethos is useful.

[jamieduff1981]

I'm not even convinced the Cerbera rack is all that quick actually. Sure it's only 2 turns lock to lock but the lock isn't very tight as testified by repeated comments on the Cerb's wide turning circle.

It's not far off a normal car in terms of angle the wheels turn through for a given handwheel input - you just run out of lock sooner.
It is a bit quicker, but not much IMHO.

[PuffsBack]

ukkid35 said:

It's not just the engines that are different. From the factory the SpeedSix was set up to be more of a Grand Tourer, with more compliant suspension, different wheels/tyres, and supposedly a slower rack (but I'm far from convinced by that claim). Obviously all that can change over time, but understanding the original ethos is useful.

Think your spot on with this. Might be true for the first SP6's but my 2002 SP6 has is 2 turns lock to lock and on (well was till I changed them for Gaz) the same springs and shocks as the V8s (and was specified with Spiders as well so no difference there either)

I believe all SP6's were fitted with the Hydratrack LSD's as well

Edited by PuffsBack on Friday 18th April 18:44

[Allandwf]

Spiders needed lock stops to stop rubbing, reducing turning circle further.

[tejr]

jamieduff1981 said:

I'm not even convinced the Cerbera rack is all that quick actually. Sure it's only 2 turns lock to lock but the lock isn't very tight as testified by repeated comments on the Cerb's wide turning circle.

It's not far off a normal car in terms of angle the wheels turn through for a given handwheel input - you just run out of lock sooner.
It is a bit quicker, but not much IMHO.

Its a hell of a lot quicker than pretty much any other car on the road! From what I remember, you can make a 90degree turn at a junction with around a quarter, maybe just shy of half a, turn of the wheel. Compare that to my 5 series which needs 3/4 of a turn which is annoying as hell to me! I LOVED the fast rack.

Also, as mentioned above, once you put the lock stops on you are now down to 1.7ish turns from lock to lock which is what gives it the bad/worse turning circle.

Avoiding pot holes with just a few inches of turn was actually a pleasure in the Cerb LOL. With the 5 series I will attempt to avoid one but it requires armfuls of turning of the wheel you end up looking like a rally driving wannabe.

[jamieduff1981]

tejr said:

jamieduff1981 said:

I'm not even convinced the Cerbera rack is all that quick actually. Sure it's only 2 turns lock to lock but the lock isn't very tight as testified by repeated comments on the Cerb's wide turning circle.

It's not far off a normal car in terms of angle the wheels turn through for a given handwheel input - you just run out of lock sooner.
It is a bit quicker, but not much IMHO.

Its a hell of a lot quicker than pretty much any other car on the road! From what I remember, you can make a 90degree turn at a junction with around a quarter, maybe just shy of half a, turn of the wheel. Compare that to my 5 series which needs 3/4 of a turn which is annoying as hell to me! I LOVED the fast rack.

Also, as mentioned above, once you put the lock stops on you are now down to 1.7ish turns from lock to lock which is what gives it the bad/worse turning circle.

Avoiding pot holes with just a few inches of turn was actually a pleasure in the Cerb LOL. With the 5 series I will attempt to avoid one but it requires armfuls of turning of the wheel you end up looking like a rally driving wannabe.

It is a bit quicker but nowhere near that sort of difference. My Jags and everything else I've ever had must have much sportier racks than your 5 series. I've driven various model years of 5-series too and the steering in no way reminded me of a London bus. My usual measure is what kind of corners I can take with fixed hand steering. I can make pretty much the same junctions with crossed arms in the Jag as I can with the Cerbera. Maybe very slightly tighter ones but it's not 1/2 turn compared to 3/4 turn as you suggest. The S-Type rack is 2.8 turns lock to lock which is less than 50% more, and this is largely offset by the fact that most cars including the S-Type have a much tighter steering lock than a Cerbera. In other words - fit some lock stops to any normal car such that it restricts the turning circle to something close to a Cerbera's and you'll find you probably have something like 2.3 turns lock-stop to lock-stop left to drive with, which isn't very far away from a Cerbera.

[Jhonno]

It significantly quicker than a BMW rack.. When I first got mine I was overcorrecting and over steering for the first mile or 2.. It reminds me of a go-kart.

[jamieduff1981]

Really? Hmm. Maybe it's just me then. I was expecting it to feel much quicker than it does. It's very direct feeling, but I wouldn't say the rack was snappy fast. I recall the steering feeling fairly familiar and a bit of an anti-climax first time I drove mine, and it's just been fairly normal speeds since. Roughly 180deg with crossed arms is enough to turn the second to last junction home in both Jags and the Cerb - maybe slightly past 180deg but not moving hands on the wheel in the Jags, but not enough for the last junction. It's certainly not night and day differences.

Maybe BMWs just aren't as sporty feeling as everyone likes to say they are, and that Jaguars are infact sportier cars where it counts?

[robsco]

The Cerbera's rack is perfect in my eyes. Marvellously direct but not overly sensitive, like for example an early Tuscan.

[m3coupe]

robsco said:

The Cerbera's rack is perfect in my eyes. Marvellously direct but not overly sensitive, like for example an early Tuscan.

I've never driven a Cerb but I loved my 2001 Tuscan's quick steering. Direction change was amazing and really controllable.

[tejr]

jamieduff1981 said:

It is a bit quicker but nowhere near that sort of difference. My Jags and everything else I've ever had must have much sportier racks than your 5 series. I've driven various model years of 5-series too and the steering in no way reminded me of a London bus. My usual measure is what kind of corners I can take with fixed hand steering. I can make pretty much the same junctions with crossed arms in the Jag as I can with the Cerbera. Maybe very slightly tighter ones but it's not 1/2 turn compared to 3/4 turn as you suggest. The S-Type rack is 2.8 turns lock to lock which is less than 50% more, and this is largely offset by the fact that most cars including the S-Type have a much tighter steering lock than a Cerbera. In other words - fit some lock stops to any normal car such that it restricts the turning circle to something close to a Cerbera's and you'll find you probably have something like 2.3 turns lock-stop to lock-stop left to drive with, which isn't very far away from a Cerbera.

Which 5 series have you driven? I don't remember the e39 being so bad, but the e60 is a load of crap, not only is the e-pas numb, but the cars without 'active' steering (ie 99%!) have a stupid amount of turns from lock to lock. I've not driven another car that required so many turns this side of a 4x4. I guess its to remove any twitchyness at autobahn speeds.

Which, funnily enough, is something I read about Cerberas and how the steering rack was slowed down in later models because owners complained too much about high speed twitchyness. Whether thats true I'm not sure, and if it is, then it would be interesting to know what year and if that correlates with those owners who don't think their steering is unusually fast?

Regarding the second part, if you add lock stops to your Jag and it becomes 2.3 turns, then you need to take into account a Cerb will only turn around 1.7 times(?), which is a big difference still.

The quickest steering on any car I owned before the Cerb was my S2000. It felt great, but the Cerb rack is faster still and like someone described - "Perfect" for my driving style. Minimal movements in steering and gearbox are my preference.

[jamieduff1981]

Hi,

I've driven an E39 523 and an E6x (not sure which) 520d estate and 530i saloon. They were all ok - nothing remarkable about any of them that I recall

[Byker28i]

jamieduff1981 said:

I'm not even convinced the Cerbera rack is all that quick actually. Sure it's only 2 turns lock to lock but the lock isn't very tight as testified by repeated comments on the Cerb's wide turning circle.

I always find a large dab of throttle helps the turning circle immensely

[PuffsBack]

Byker28i said:

I always find a large dab of throttle helps the turning circle immensely

Quality!