Suspected clutch seal issues
Discussion
I have a problem with my clutch and would like to ask the PH collective on where they think I should be looking. I will try and give a full description of the symptoms:
The car had a problem with the clutch about 4 months ago when I left it in 1st overnight (due to being parked on a steep hill). The car was difficult to get out of 1st in the morning before starting and then wouldn't go into gear at all. It didn't grind the box it just wouldn't go into gear full stop. I checked the fluid level which was at max and tried again - after 5 minutes of pumping the clutch it engaged reverse, after a few more attempts I managed to get 1st, then 2nd then after driving for a mile or so all gears were back and the clutch was operating normally.
The car drove fine and the clutch worked perfectly for the next four months.
I have been driving one of my other TVRs and the Cerbera has been parked on my drive for about four weeks (not in gear). I just tried to go out and the clutch feels like it did when I had the problem before. I can't engage any gears.
The clutch pedal has pressure but it does feel like less pressure and the pressure isn't always consistent on pedal presses. The footwell doesn't show any visible sign of fluid - I can't really check under the car as it is parked on yellowish gravel and difficult to see and fluid.
The clutch was replaced about 5 years ago but in that time it has done less than 5k miles.
In my mind it feels like seals but I would like to ask peoples advice on here before I start diving in. I may have to attempt the job myself as the car isn't in a great position to be recovered - having said that it isn't in a great position to work on either (outside and on gravel).
I have tackled plenty of jobs on TVRs over the years but never a clutch. Any help/advice greatly received.
The car had a problem with the clutch about 4 months ago when I left it in 1st overnight (due to being parked on a steep hill). The car was difficult to get out of 1st in the morning before starting and then wouldn't go into gear at all. It didn't grind the box it just wouldn't go into gear full stop. I checked the fluid level which was at max and tried again - after 5 minutes of pumping the clutch it engaged reverse, after a few more attempts I managed to get 1st, then 2nd then after driving for a mile or so all gears were back and the clutch was operating normally.
The car drove fine and the clutch worked perfectly for the next four months.
I have been driving one of my other TVRs and the Cerbera has been parked on my drive for about four weeks (not in gear). I just tried to go out and the clutch feels like it did when I had the problem before. I can't engage any gears.
The clutch pedal has pressure but it does feel like less pressure and the pressure isn't always consistent on pedal presses. The footwell doesn't show any visible sign of fluid - I can't really check under the car as it is parked on yellowish gravel and difficult to see and fluid.
The clutch was replaced about 5 years ago but in that time it has done less than 5k miles.
In my mind it feels like seals but I would like to ask peoples advice on here before I start diving in. I may have to attempt the job myself as the car isn't in a great position to be recovered - having said that it isn't in a great position to work on either (outside and on gravel).
I have tackled plenty of jobs on TVRs over the years but never a clutch. Any help/advice greatly received.
New owner here,
having just replaced my master and slave units I can tell you that the master is a simple job and can be done from footwell and panel in the engine bay. The slave you will need a lift for.
I would suggest letting brake off and engaging gear it will go in fine once car moves slightly, then you can engage starter motor for a second in reverse and 1st. You may find it frees up. Have had that happen once on a bike clutch. If not then seals to be suspected.
having just replaced my master and slave units I can tell you that the master is a simple job and can be done from footwell and panel in the engine bay. The slave you will need a lift for.
I would suggest letting brake off and engaging gear it will go in fine once car moves slightly, then you can engage starter motor for a second in reverse and 1st. You may find it frees up. Have had that happen once on a bike clutch. If not then seals to be suspected.
scerbera said:
New owner here,
having just replaced my master and slave units I can tell you that the master is a simple job and can be done from footwell and panel in the engine bay. The slave you will need a lift for.
I would suggest letting brake off and engaging gear it will go in fine once car moves slightly, then you can engage starter motor for a second in reverse and 1st. You may find it frees up. Have had that happen once on a bike clutch. If not then seals to be suspected.
Thanks for that suggestion - I didn't think about that and I suppose being outside and in the rain for a month may have caused the clutch to seize. It may also nicely explain the same problem when I left it in gear overnight. having just replaced my master and slave units I can tell you that the master is a simple job and can be done from footwell and panel in the engine bay. The slave you will need a lift for.
I would suggest letting brake off and engaging gear it will go in fine once car moves slightly, then you can engage starter motor for a second in reverse and 1st. You may find it frees up. Have had that happen once on a bike clutch. If not then seals to be suspected.
So to confirm - the procedure here is (without engine running) get the car into a gear (reverse or 1st) by rocking/moving it. Then press the start button with the car in gear and see if the bump frees it off.
The gearbox can be removed with the car on axle stands. I did it in February last year on a stoney driveway. A lift or even my new big dry shed/barn thing would be much more comfortable.
If fluid is going to the slave cylinder but not declutching, then it needs to be leaking out of the bellhousing - i.e. it has to be going somewhere. It could indeed be a seized clutch, and that the slave cylinder is indeed stroking but you're just bending the clutch fingers. If that were the case, I'd still want to remove it to inspect the fingers. They are not the most robust on these as I'm sure you know.
My bet is the master cylinder seals. It doesn't need to be leaking in to the foot well. The piston seal just needs to be perished enough to let fluid pass rather than be displaced down the hydraulic tube to the slave. Mine fit that description well. Have a look in the reservoir for dark clouds or particles.
If fluid is going to the slave cylinder but not declutching, then it needs to be leaking out of the bellhousing - i.e. it has to be going somewhere. It could indeed be a seized clutch, and that the slave cylinder is indeed stroking but you're just bending the clutch fingers. If that were the case, I'd still want to remove it to inspect the fingers. They are not the most robust on these as I'm sure you know.
My bet is the master cylinder seals. It doesn't need to be leaking in to the foot well. The piston seal just needs to be perished enough to let fluid pass rather than be displaced down the hydraulic tube to the slave. Mine fit that description well. Have a look in the reservoir for dark clouds or particles.
jamieduff1981 said:
The gearbox can be removed with the car on axle stands. I did it in February last year on a stoney driveway. A lift or even my new big dry shed/barn thing would be much more comfortable.
If fluid is going to the slave cylinder but not declutching, then it needs to be leaking out of the bellhousing - i.e. it has to be going somewhere. It could indeed be a seized clutch, and that the slave cylinder is indeed stroking but you're just bending the clutch fingers. If that were the case, I'd still want to remove it to inspect the fingers. They are not the most robust on these as I'm sure you know.
My bet is the master cylinder seals. It doesn't need to be leaking in to the foot well. The piston seal just needs to be perished enough to let fluid pass rather than be displaced down the hydraulic tube to the slave. Mine fit that description well. Have a look in the reservoir for dark clouds or particles.
Thanks - I will get the clutch cover off and check for particles/seal remains. I am keeping my fingers crossed as the easiest/cheapest fix seems to be the master cylinder.If fluid is going to the slave cylinder but not declutching, then it needs to be leaking out of the bellhousing - i.e. it has to be going somewhere. It could indeed be a seized clutch, and that the slave cylinder is indeed stroking but you're just bending the clutch fingers. If that were the case, I'd still want to remove it to inspect the fingers. They are not the most robust on these as I'm sure you know.
My bet is the master cylinder seals. It doesn't need to be leaking in to the foot well. The piston seal just needs to be perished enough to let fluid pass rather than be displaced down the hydraulic tube to the slave. Mine fit that description well. Have a look in the reservoir for dark clouds or particles.
Tanguero said:
Your symptoms sound like either master cylinder seals or an air bubble. I would go for the easy one first and bleed the clutch with some fresh fluid and see where that gets you.
Completely agree.If the slave seals are gone you will be able to pour fluid in and move the car before it can possibly all leak out, you might even get an hours drive out of it. If the slave seals are gone, they can behave very erratically, sometimes holding pressure sometimes not. You definitely don't want to attempt to remove the gearbox on gravel at any time of year, let alone a cold wet October.
Thanks for the advice. I now have a plan of attack for Saturday morning.
I am going to inspect the fluid, if all clean bleed the clutch. If that doesn't help I will try and bump the car in gear to see if it is seized. If all that fails and assuming the fluid as clean then I think I am looking at a slave issue or fingers.
However, even if I suspect a slave issue I will probably replace the master first anyhow as it sounds like the easier job and even if the fluid is clean in the reservoir and the clutch is bled you never know.
Fingers crossed (excuse the pun).
I am going to inspect the fluid, if all clean bleed the clutch. If that doesn't help I will try and bump the car in gear to see if it is seized. If all that fails and assuming the fluid as clean then I think I am looking at a slave issue or fingers.
However, even if I suspect a slave issue I will probably replace the master first anyhow as it sounds like the easier job and even if the fluid is clean in the reservoir and the clutch is bled you never know.
Fingers crossed (excuse the pun).
I'll be following this thread with interest, because this is the same issue my car has had on several occasions. I'll be getting it on some ramps in Jan to get more acquainted with the issue. I changed the master, but with no success. With mine, the slave is definitely leaking, but the fluid leak is hard to see beneath the car. Could it be that it somehow catches in the bell housing giving you the impression it is not leaking?
A top tip if you working on gravel is to get some of those foam mats from halfrauds. They are currently £10 a set, which is about two square meters. Believe me they are a god send on rough aggregate.
A top tip if you working on gravel is to get some of those foam mats from halfrauds. They are currently £10 a set, which is about two square meters. Believe me they are a god send on rough aggregate.
Looks like the issue is catching - three Cerberas all with the same symptoms now!
I still have my fingers crossed that I will open the clutch fluid reservoir and see bits of the master seal or no fluid. No fluid would be less desirable though as it must have gone somewhere.
If all looks well then yes, I will let the car idle for 10 minutes and get it nice and hot before attempting to start it in gear to see if it is seized to the flywheel.
I still have my fingers crossed that I will open the clutch fluid reservoir and see bits of the master seal or no fluid. No fluid would be less desirable though as it must have gone somewhere.
If all looks well then yes, I will let the car idle for 10 minutes and get it nice and hot before attempting to start it in gear to see if it is seized to the flywheel.
My car has been quite good on the clutch front for the last few years, I guess it's about time it played up.
There is no fluid in the footwell that I can see, pedals and carpets are dry. Where it goes, nobody knows...
When I bled it, the bubbles only seemed to come out at the end of the pedal travel, had to press the pedal into the carpet to get them all out. Saw a couple of small black bits come through the tube as well. The car has had 4 replacement slaves in its lifetime but is still on the original master cylinder.
Btw how do people dispose of old brake fluid?
There is no fluid in the footwell that I can see, pedals and carpets are dry. Where it goes, nobody knows...
When I bled it, the bubbles only seemed to come out at the end of the pedal travel, had to press the pedal into the carpet to get them all out. Saw a couple of small black bits come through the tube as well. The car has had 4 replacement slaves in its lifetime but is still on the original master cylinder.
Btw how do people dispose of old brake fluid?
ukkid35 said:
FarmyardPants said:
Btw how do people dispose of old brake fluid?
Same as used engine oil.mine too is the same. was like it at the beginning of the year, bleed it and has been fine, last month was stuck in gear and couldn't get reverse even after trying fifth first as normal.
My winter plan is both the slave and master and replace clutch, among other things, and this year have a nice garage to do it all in.
My winter plan is both the slave and master and replace clutch, among other things, and this year have a nice garage to do it all in.
I managed to get around to my car a little later than planned today (isn't that always the way with Saturdays) and I think we have a suspect. I think the master seals are shot...they seem to be mostly in my clutch fluid reservoir. At least that's what I think it is. I will post up some pictures later but the clutch fluid is now black and full of what looks like small rubber particles.
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