Valuation article in Sprint
Discussion
Byker28i said:
I'd give it up chaps, the truth will never come out, it was all the author according to the mouthpiece, it wasn't the author, according to the author. Itheyll just be face saving and sweeping under the carpet.
Meanwhile, we know the values, the buyers know the values, with the new cars coming out then the interest on the old models will increase. Whilst these are never investments, increasing the values makes it easier to justify spending the money keeping them on the road.
Assuming you have your copy now and you've read the article you'll know who added the valuation table and a response will be printed in next months Sprint, there is no mystery and nothing needs to be swept under any carpet. Meanwhile, we know the values, the buyers know the values, with the new cars coming out then the interest on the old models will increase. Whilst these are never investments, increasing the values makes it easier to justify spending the money keeping them on the road.
We intend to collate the date as mentioned in my and Richard's posts above and announce shortly how/where buyers/sellers along with co-operating dealers can send sales information (anonymously if required, no individual or actual car will ever be identified) to assist in the creation of a quarterly market report.
V8 GRF said:
Assuming you have your copy now and you've read the article you'll know who added the valuation table and a response will be printed in next months Sprint, there is no mystery and nothing needs to be swept under any carpet.
But that is not quite correct is it, yes we TVRCC members know who added the valuation table but crucially not which "specialist" compiled/supplied the figures within it. That is the real mystery.Who cares about an article in a club magazine? I'm a member of TVRCC out of some sort of loyalty, but I just leaf through Sprint. The idea that a table of values Sprint can affect the market is lending it too much weight. To be fair to them, they've had an up hill battle finding something new to write about a dead marque for the last 10 years.
Str8six virtually single handedly started asking big money for Sagaris's and actually shifting them. Suddenly that was the bench mark for that model.
If they are starting to shift Cerberas for good money then Cerb owners can start rubbing their hands together, and good luck to them. TVRs are undervalued generally IMHO.
Str8six virtually single handedly started asking big money for Sagaris's and actually shifting them. Suddenly that was the bench mark for that model.
If they are starting to shift Cerberas for good money then Cerb owners can start rubbing their hands together, and good luck to them. TVRs are undervalued generally IMHO.
V8 GRF said:
Assuming you have your copy now and you've read the article you'll know who added the valuation table and a response will be printed in next months Sprint, there is no mystery and nothing needs to be swept under any carpet.
Yes I have my Sprint. I had to ask the office to send a copy as mine never arrived.It says who wrote the article, it says who rewrote the article.
In a position of responsibility, surely it's the editors duty to ensure what's printed in the article is factual, rather than to say it's the authors fault?
swisstoni said:
Who cares about an article in a club magazine? I'm a member of TVRCC out of some sort of loyalty, but I just leaf through Sprint. The idea that a table of values Sprint can affect the market is lending it too much weight.
Having embarked on restoring mine over the last two years and spent £10.5K on it, yes it has an impact. When my wife looks at the figures and sees it's worth £9k in good condition, as it's not worth £11.5K in excellent (near showroom condition), then we're in a world of argument when I try to book it for a respray to continue the project.If these are the actual values suggested then there's no point at all in undertaking this work. If this was two years ago then I'd have been better scrapping the car for parts, assuming poor condition, rotted outriggers, £6750.
It's not just in resell or repair values that this could be affected. Imagine having this table presented to you by your insurance company after an accident as the official TVR guide?
The same way that prices can be driven up can also work the other way. Cars will be lost rather than restored. Rather than protect the marque, this could be damaging.
swisstoni said:
To be fair to them, they've had an up hill battle finding something new to write about a dead marque for the last 10 years.
I think thats a little unfair as the owners are very active although not always in 'official' tvrcc related activities. There's always a mix of an engineering project, the racing reports, a meet report and the adverts. I quite like the adverts, I know thats contentious to some, but for me it's interesting to see whats offered, plus an indication of the strength of support of the brand.I've just spent 4 days away with some other owners with a sub plot of providing content for Sprint. Whether it gets in is another matter. If the need for content or to meet the deadlines means that due editorial process is rushed or missed, then perhaps the magazine need to be every other month, but that would probably affect the advertising income stream.
Sprint magazine has always been seen as a quality magazine, knowledgeable articles, good production and editorial values, envied by other clubs. Any possible dilution of this should be avoided.
Edited by Byker28i on Sunday 2nd August 08:00
To think that one article in an obscure club magazine, hardly read by owners, let alone the outside world, could actually have an affect on market values is fanciful.
One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
Byker28i said:
Yes I have my Sprint. I had to ask the office to send a copy as mine never arrived.
It says who wrote the article, it says who rewrote the article. In a position of responsibility, surely it's the editors duty to ensure what's printed in the article is factual, rather than to say it's the authors fault?
The table was pulled together from data supplied by a well known TVR dealer combined with a table from a well known classic car magazine. As such it wasn't questioned as that person supplies the insurance valuations from the club. In hindsight it was wrong to print some of the figures but it was printed and was done so in good faith so there is no point in pointing fingers or wringing hands.It says who wrote the article, it says who rewrote the article. In a position of responsibility, surely it's the editors duty to ensure what's printed in the article is factual, rather than to say it's the authors fault?
We will learn from this mistake and move forward to find a way to produce more relevant figures. But as suggest above taking advertised figures isn't the way to produce sensible 'market' values. How many times do we see adverts where the car is priced at a level where it's plainly not 'really' for sale?
"Yes love it's advertised". "Look here's the advert but no one seems to be interested, I told you the market was dead, I think I'll just have t keep it"
We also know there is often a significant difference between 'advertised' and 'sale' price. Doing things properly is never easy but as long as we can obtain real sales data from a number of sources, and there does seem to be a willingness from parties to assist in supplying that date, then at least we'll be able to produce something that's an accurate reflection of genuine sales activity.
Byker28i said:
I've just spent 4 days away with some other owners with a sub plot of providing content for Sprint. Whether it gets in is another matter. If the need for content or to meet the deadlines means that due editorial process is rushed or missed, then perhaps the magazine need to be every other month, but that would probably affect the advertising income stream.
Great! We're always on the hunt for content and to be fair we haven't printed much on Cerberas recently so anything of interest is always welcomed. Despite this 'blip' we do take a lot of care over content and articles are rarely rushed or pushed to meet deadlines, indeed we frequently 'bump' articles to obtain better photographs, more space to do a piece justice or just add to or rectify errors. As mentioned elsewhere no one is perfect and we don't claim to be either.So please, anything you're thinking of submitting please do so.
Byker28i said:
Sprint magazine has always been seen as a quality magazine, knowledgeable articles, good production and editorial values, envied by other clubs. Any possible dilution of this should be avoided.
Thanks for the compliment, we do try very hard to maintain standards and interesting content.swisstoni said:
To think that one article in an obscure club magazine, hardly read by owners, let alone the outside world, could actually have an affect on market values is fanciful.
One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
That is your opinion and I think you'll find its wrong, just because you don't read it doesn't mean you're in the majority.One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
Many members read the magazine judging by the emails we receive, and the many face to face comments we get. Loads of people who I have never met say hello to me using my real name which suggests they do read the magazine or they wouldn't be able to identify me outside of my car.
I'll accepted your 'back-handed' compliment though as we do struggle to find content at times and we do depend on folk such as Byker and similar owners supplying us with quality pictures and pieces about their projects, technical tips, trips and other interesting TVR associated activities.
V8 GRF said:
Byker28i said:
Yes I have my Sprint. I had to ask the office to send a copy as mine never arrived.
It says who wrote the article, it says who rewrote the article. In a position of responsibility, surely it's the editors duty to ensure what's printed in the article is factual, rather than to say it's the authors fault?
The table was pulled together from data supplied by a well known TVR dealer combined with a table from a well known classic car magazine. As such it wasn't questioned as that person supplies the insurance valuations from the club. In hindsight it was wrong to print some of the figures but it was printed and was done so in good faith so there is no point in pointing fingers or wringing hands.It says who wrote the article, it says who rewrote the article. In a position of responsibility, surely it's the editors duty to ensure what's printed in the article is factual, rather than to say it's the authors fault?
We will learn from this mistake and move forward to find a way to produce more relevant figures. But as suggest above taking advertised figures isn't the way to produce sensible 'market' values. How many times do we see adverts where the car is priced at a level where it's plainly not 'really' for sale?
"Yes love it's advertised". "Look here's the advert but no one seems to be interested, I told you the market was dead, I think I'll just have t keep it"
We also know there is often a significant difference between 'advertised' and 'sale' price. Doing things properly is never easy but as long as we can obtain real sales data from a number of sources, and there does seem to be a willingness from parties to assist in supplying that date, then at least we'll be able to produce something that's an accurate reflection of genuine sales activity.
Byker28i said:
I've just spent 4 days away with some other owners with a sub plot of providing content for Sprint. Whether it gets in is another matter. If the need for content or to meet the deadlines means that due editorial process is rushed or missed, then perhaps the magazine need to be every other month, but that would probably affect the advertising income stream.
Great! We're always on the hunt for content and to be fair we haven't printed much on Cerberas recently so anything of interest is always welcomed. Despite this 'blip' we do take a lot of care over content and articles are rarely rushed or pushed to meet deadlines, indeed we frequently 'bump' articles to obtain better photographs, more space to do a piece justice or just add to or rectify errors. As mentioned elsewhere no one is perfect and we don't claim to be either.So please, anything you're thinking of submitting please do so.
Byker28i said:
Sprint magazine has always been seen as a quality magazine, knowledgeable articles, good production and editorial values, envied by other clubs. Any possible dilution of this should be avoided.
Thanks for the compliment, we do try very hard to maintain standards and interesting content.swisstoni said:
To think that one article in an obscure club magazine, hardly read by owners, let alone the outside world, could actually have an affect on market values is fanciful.
One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
That is your opinion and I think you'll find its wrong, just because you don't read it doesn't mean you're in the majority.One Cerbera actually selling for good money will get a darn sight more attention and affect on values.
And I wasn't being unfair to Sprint - I think they've done a decent job with tiny resources over the wilderness years. Mistakes are bound to slip in from time to time.
Many members read the magazine judging by the emails we receive, and the many face to face comments we get. Loads of people who I have never met say hello to me using my real name which suggests they do read the magazine or they wouldn't be able to identify me outside of my car.
I'll accepted your 'back-handed' compliment though as we do struggle to find content at times and we do depend on folk such as Byker and similar owners supplying us with quality pictures and pieces about their projects, technical tips, trips and other interesting TVR associated activities.
swisstoni said:
My point was that one erroneous article about values in a club magazine won't have any affect in the outside world. If, as appears the case, you think Sprint is so influential you should be a darn sight more careful.
I was responding to your bit about 'hardly read by members' not that we're influential.The TVR Club would be advised to keep it's nose out of publicised valuations... leave that to the dealers and buyers... insurance replacement valuation is a completely different issue which it best left between the owner and the insurance company and if the TVR Club provides an acceptable valuation then fair enough.
The previous TVRCC Registrar to me, Mervyn Larner, used to provide a car valuation service principally for insurance purposes to club members based on submitted photos for a small fee. I had two while owning my V8S…I think the club charged IIRC £5-10 a go.
When I took on the role I was not asked to continue providing this service. I didn’t have the market knowledge, and it was decided, neither did Richard Sails when filling the new post of Archivist, as his interest and therefore knowledge was predominately in the “older” models.
However the current chairman, Simon Lacy, was still looking for a way for the club to provide the service....fair enough. But as TVR model prices had significantly increased and those were generally the cars owned by incoming members, it was collectively decided by Chair/Treasurer and subsequently committee, to be a high risk strategy in our ever increasing litigious society, and so members were “steered” to getting valuations from recognised traders.
It would appear there has been a change of policy, or at least some intent to somehow be involved in market values.
When I took on the role I was not asked to continue providing this service. I didn’t have the market knowledge, and it was decided, neither did Richard Sails when filling the new post of Archivist, as his interest and therefore knowledge was predominately in the “older” models.
However the current chairman, Simon Lacy, was still looking for a way for the club to provide the service....fair enough. But as TVR model prices had significantly increased and those were generally the cars owned by incoming members, it was collectively decided by Chair/Treasurer and subsequently committee, to be a high risk strategy in our ever increasing litigious society, and so members were “steered” to getting valuations from recognised traders.
It would appear there has been a change of policy, or at least some intent to somehow be involved in market values.
glow worm said:
The TVR Club would be advised to keep it's nose out of publicised valuations... leave that to the dealers and buyers... insurance replacement valuation is a completely different issue which it best left between the owner and the insurance company and if the TVR Club provides an acceptable valuation then fair enough.
I'd agree. Keep out !Agree with above. I still stand by my comment which is they could track private and trade advertised prices and maybe split the data by year of manufacture. Whilst advertised prices arent the same as actual selling prices I would expect a more organised approach to throw up other more serious challenges eg manipulation by those supplying prices.
This is how it was done by Seloc on used prices of Evora's, far more meaningful:
http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Evora_Price_Tracking
http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Evora_Price_Tracking
Hi, I already did a litlle post about it, here are the mean prices of several models. Every 3 months, I look on PH the first quartile (25% ads are cheaper, 75% are more expansive) of the prices. Only models running and with MOT are taken into account.
Sorry for the missing values!
Q /Year Chim Cerb Cerb4.5 Tuscan
T2 2011 9900 12000 xxxxx 17000
T3 2011 8400 11500 13900 xxxx
T4 2011 9000 12300 14000 14800
T1 2012 9000 13000 14000 xxxx
T2 2012 9000 12000 13000 xxxx
T3 2012 9000 11000 14300 xxxx
T4 2012 9200 11800 16600 xxxx
T1 2013 9100 12000 14000 xxxx
T2 2013 9400 12000 15000 17400
T3 2013 9000 12500 14500 16700
T4 2013 8500 11600 14700 16100
T1 2014 10000 13500 15700 16500
T2 2014 9400 14400 14900 17600
T3 2014 xxxx 14300 16400 18000
T4 2014 xxxx 15100 16600 18800
T1 2015 xxxx 15000 xxxxx 21500
T2 2015 12200 17000 xxxxx 20000
Sorry for the missing values!
Q /Year Chim Cerb Cerb4.5 Tuscan
T2 2011 9900 12000 xxxxx 17000
T3 2011 8400 11500 13900 xxxx
T4 2011 9000 12300 14000 14800
T1 2012 9000 13000 14000 xxxx
T2 2012 9000 12000 13000 xxxx
T3 2012 9000 11000 14300 xxxx
T4 2012 9200 11800 16600 xxxx
T1 2013 9100 12000 14000 xxxx
T2 2013 9400 12000 15000 17400
T3 2013 9000 12500 14500 16700
T4 2013 8500 11600 14700 16100
T1 2014 10000 13500 15700 16500
T2 2014 9400 14400 14900 17600
T3 2014 xxxx 14300 16400 18000
T4 2014 xxxx 15100 16600 18800
T1 2015 xxxx 15000 xxxxx 21500
T2 2015 12200 17000 xxxxx 20000
V8 GRF said:
... a response will be printed in next months Sprint
There is indeed a response by Mervyn Larner, Club secretary, mostly a cut and paste from what V8GRF posted here on 17th July, a few more from other comments and with a couple of extra points on recent Cerbera valuations by the club.I think what damage it generated has already been done, so like any retraction it becomes meaningless after the fact, lip service at worse. However I don’t think it has done lasting damage, despite being most unhelpful and unwelcome to the Marque and its supporters, club and non club members alike. Time to move on though.
I suppose the one lasting effect is it reaffirms why the club is irrelevant to me and despite a fleeting moment where I thought I might rejoin the club to ensure I didn’t mids out on the new car and news etc, it has now gone.
I suppose the one lasting effect is it reaffirms why the club is irrelevant to me and despite a fleeting moment where I thought I might rejoin the club to ensure I didn’t mids out on the new car and news etc, it has now gone.
HarryW said:
I think what damage it generated has already been done, so like any retraction it becomes meaningless after the fact, lip service at worse. However I don’t think it has done lasting damage, despite being most unhelpful and unwelcome to the Marque and its supporters, club and non club members alike. Time to move on though.
I suppose the one lasting effect is it reaffirms why the club is irrelevant to me and despite a fleeting moment where I thought I might rejoin the club to ensure I didn’t mids out on the new car and news etc, it has now gone.
Well said! I think to really wind up the club and the NEW car owners is to have my Speed Six 4.7 rebuild to be handed back to me (after a full showroom valet) the day the new car hits the road, then we can talk values... lolI suppose the one lasting effect is it reaffirms why the club is irrelevant to me and despite a fleeting moment where I thought I might rejoin the club to ensure I didn’t mids out on the new car and news etc, it has now gone.
Incognegro said:
Well said! I think to really wind up the club and the NEW car owners is to have my Speed Six 4.7 rebuild to be handed back to me (after a full showroom valet) the day the new car hits the road, then we can talk values... lol
You having the 4.7! Will be interesting to get feedback from that!Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff