Valuation article in Sprint
Discussion
V8 GRF said:
The author doesn't 'do' PH so I'm posting the following comments on his behalf:
1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
Thank you for posting this. The combination of the original article and your ludicrous response defending such blatant nonsense have encouraged me to finally get round to cancelling my TVRCC membership when it comes up for renewal.1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
As a member of the editorial team of Sprint you should be aware that the magazine is a powerful tool that can cut in both directions. I no longer wish to be a member of an organisation that can publish such rubbish in their magazine or defend it in a public forum when they are called out on the obvious inaccuracy of it.
V8 GRF said:
The author doesn't 'do' PH so I'm posting the following comments on his behalf:
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
I wonder who was spoken to on point 5. Not having a pop, just surprising. Most of the people I've spoken to (dealers) can not get hold of any Cerbera's and the demand is very high. Predictions from them on my own valuation is very good for next year. Let alone this years valuation I received, and the recent sale at Str8Six backs it up. In fact, the AJP engine being TVR's own is one of the reasons "dealers" expect them to surge in demand - the whole in house, own built engine and rarity factor. 5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
Never the less, either way, I think all TVR valuations/prices will remain strong - and so they should, with great value and driving occasion which ever version you choose. Despite the rather low ball levels stated on Cerbs (SP6 have always been slightly lower than the V8, never the same?!) - glad to see Sprint kicking off the debate - it can only be a good thing to highlight the models that are undervalued.
Edited by Moycie on Friday 17th July 10:52
Well this is pretty embarrassing for Sprint...
Any TVR owner, not just Cerb owners will laugh at that and if you are writing rubbish like that where does that leave the credibility for anything else in the magazine? Pretty bizarre, almost like there is an agenda...
On what planet has this 'research' been done? The questionable V8 support (#5) is a not an argument - plenty of specialists out there that service them just the same as the S6 and its widely considered a more reliable unit anyway (before rebuilds). Many AJP's known to go through 100k without rebuilds and S6 engined Cerbs are often priced very close or even a bit less than the equivalent V8 cars anyway so....???
Many Cerbs now have had restorations particularly the earlier ones which rightly increases values and even the few remaining really tatty cars have appeal because if you can get one for around 10k (still possible?) and then restore it you potentially have a cracking car for a pretty low price..
There's really no defence for being that far out.
Any TVR owner, not just Cerb owners will laugh at that and if you are writing rubbish like that where does that leave the credibility for anything else in the magazine? Pretty bizarre, almost like there is an agenda...
On what planet has this 'research' been done? The questionable V8 support (#5) is a not an argument - plenty of specialists out there that service them just the same as the S6 and its widely considered a more reliable unit anyway (before rebuilds). Many AJP's known to go through 100k without rebuilds and S6 engined Cerbs are often priced very close or even a bit less than the equivalent V8 cars anyway so....???
Many Cerbs now have had restorations particularly the earlier ones which rightly increases values and even the few remaining really tatty cars have appeal because if you can get one for around 10k (still possible?) and then restore it you potentially have a cracking car for a pretty low price..
There's really no defence for being that far out.
I bought my Cerbera not too long ago so was watching prices very closely and those quoted in the article are way out. Instead of giving an arse covering statement about how they came up with these maybe they should show us the sales or cars for sale that are around £6k, I want one for spares. On the v8 v S6 point I bought mine on the advice of a very reputable specialist who told me to stay well clear of the S6 and get a well looked after v8. As for not being 'experts' on every TVR you are very obviously correct so maybe you shouldn't write complete crap about something you are not sure about.
V8 GRF said:
The author doesn't 'do' PH so I'm posting the following comments on his behalf:
1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
That is the weakest defence I've read in a long time. Either he's done his research or he hasn't. What his "comments" amount to is that he basically made it all up and it's not worth the paper it's written on.1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
If he's going to write such demonstrable nonsense then justify it with such caveats, then the editorial team need to do some editorial stuff and ask themselves whether it's constructive or destructive to publish such crap.
I'll answer that for you. You shouldn't have published such crap. You either believe in it or you don't publish it.
The TVRCC forum is dead. If the author doesn't "do" Pistonheads then one has to wonder where his information does come from, and in particular he's probably not in a good place to make statements like Excuse 5 above.
I would have had much more respect for this piece of work had the response been more "Yeah we might have got that wrong" rather than what's written above.
TVRMs said:
Pistonheads is where you should take all your advice, no one writes crap on here, most of the folk who post are experts too ...
Sarcasm is strong, however, considering the quality/research put into this article, possibly rather misplaced in this context considering "PH" realises what b
ks the prices were..I am used to political and spun responses when working for banks and dealing with consultants and regulators but to see such comments from the owners club really is such a shame. The valuations are tosh and the reasonings given are even worse. You got it wrong plain and simple. Put your hand up and move on.
V8 GRF said:
The author doesn't 'do' PH so I'm posting the following comments on his behalf:
1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
Sorry but what a pile of Tosh, especially the defence.1. The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
2. One of the points of the article was to encourage discussion & debate about the value of TVRs as the values of many classics are changing/increasing rapidly.
3. When values in monthly classic car magazines are viewed the values of many TVRs are often below those of other classics. Is this correct and is it a true picture of what’s happening in the market?
4. At the bottom of the Sprint values table there is a caveat. Average quoted values are just that and each individual car has to be judged by the seller and buyer until an agreement is made.
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
6. In the year since the Club has re-introduced agreed values only one Club member has query his valuation and it was increased when further information was supplied.
7. No Club Agreed Value has been queried or refused by any insurance broker/company. Valuations have ranged from low thousands into six-figures.
Please read these comments fully and while it's fine posting extreme examples such as the Str8six car it's clear that Cerberas are indeed undervalued in the market and I think comment 5 is rather telling.
By the way it's nice that people think that both Mandy and I should be 'experts' in everything TVR related but that's clearly not possible and that is why we have specialist model editors and feature articles written by folk with knowledge of a particular area. Hence this piece was extensively researched and based on advice obtained from those involved in the selling of the cars rather than the impassioned/biased opinions of owners of particular models.
The piece was intended as a guide not a de-facto analysis of the market which as we all know is fluid and indeed the table is merely a footnote to a much more in-depth piece about how to go about ascertaining the value of your car for both insurance and sales purposes.
1.The views/opinions are those of the writer(s) of the article, not the editor(s).
But the whole point of the Editors is to control the content of magazine. You wouldn't allow improper quotes, hearsay, or I daresay any criticism or downplay of a 500 Griff (which strangely is highly valued).
5. I expected the table of “values” to cause some debate, particularly of Cerbera V8s. A regular dealer told me that they were becoming harder to sell as buyers were cautious about the parts supply and support for the V8 engine. He may or may not be correct! Buyers seem to feel the there is good support for S6 engines even though they had a rocky early few years.
AJP8 is a valued engine, always sought after over the S6 versions of the Cerbera. Cerberas are now in short supply and prices have risen significantly because of this, added to the general rise in prices following TVR network and new ownership. Parts and reliability for this engine have never been questioned.
Sprint magazine has always been seen as a quality magazine, knowledgeable articles, good production and editorial values. This rather looks like someone got lazy, or the need for content overrode the usual quality standards. The unvaluing of at least a third compared to similar aged models should have triggered a warning.
V8 GRF, thank you for taking the time to post this, very much a case of entering the Lion’s den!
I’ve been a member of a lot of clubs and do understand that any classic car valuation can be emotive and contentious. However I do genuinely think the author is way off the mark. This is based on personal experience, recent purchases by PH members and the classifieds.
The problem is, this isn’t just a case of peeing off a few noisy Cerb owners, it could have some serious financial implications for owners.
For example, if you get into a dispute with your insurance company over the value of your recently written off Cerb and the insurance company call on the TVRCC for an independent valuation, you could receive a settlement which is well under the current market value.
I would strongly suggest if the club wishes to issue valuations, it has a duty to its members to ensure due diligence is completed and these are representative of the current market value.
Just my two pence worth.
I’ve been a member of a lot of clubs and do understand that any classic car valuation can be emotive and contentious. However I do genuinely think the author is way off the mark. This is based on personal experience, recent purchases by PH members and the classifieds.
The problem is, this isn’t just a case of peeing off a few noisy Cerb owners, it could have some serious financial implications for owners.
For example, if you get into a dispute with your insurance company over the value of your recently written off Cerb and the insurance company call on the TVRCC for an independent valuation, you could receive a settlement which is well under the current market value.
I would strongly suggest if the club wishes to issue valuations, it has a duty to its members to ensure due diligence is completed and these are representative of the current market value.
Just my two pence worth.
Not the T cars, they are way out of my price range, just the S6 Cerberas as the ones in my price range were quite early cars and had early examples of the S6, so for reliability I was told to go for a AJP with plenty oh history etc. I'm not slating S6 Cerberas in any way, I just didn't like the way in his explanation for the article the AJP was being slagged off as an inferior engine.
Jhonno said:
TVRMs said:
Pistonheads is where you should take all your advice, no one writes crap on here, most of the folk who post are experts too ...
Sarcasm is strong, however, considering the quality/research put into this article, possibly rather misplaced in this context considering "PH" realises what bks the prices were..Seems they failed, should they have to justify to the PH massive? Car club members on PH yes, others well I suggest no.
Byker28i said:
AJP8 is a valued engine, always sought after over the S6 versions of the Cerbera.
Definitely not true for many of us Cerb owners! I for one did not want an AJP V8 and money had nothing to do with it. It's a matter of personal taste, nothing else. By the way, almost six years of ownership and no issues with the S6. Loving it.I Don't understand why the TVRCC would publish an article which undermines one of their models in this way? I am a TVRCC member as i'm sure others on here are too, and i'm not sure i wan't to support a club that would do this. It seems that some if not all of the other models in the article have been given a healthy estimated price, i wonder if any of their owners have questioned their valuation, i suspect not.
I alway saw the Cerbera as a flagship model, and the AJP engine a great part of the TVR history which makes this car unique.
Is there an AJP club? or a Cebera club? Perhaps this is the way to go?
I alway saw the Cerbera as a flagship model, and the AJP engine a great part of the TVR history which makes this car unique.
Is there an AJP club? or a Cebera club? Perhaps this is the way to go?
Flame suit on.
Haha.
For months n months, I have had to listen(read) to people on here talk down the value of Sags. Question why selling so high. Blah Blah. Not so funny now its the other models now is it!
Flame suit off.
Everyone always believes their car is worth more than it is. But in this article they were very undervalued. Normally I would not worry, BUT as someone pointed out in an insurance payout they are likely to listen to TVRCC more than me. So that sucks...
To get so angry and leave is sillyness. Maybe a newer article in the future to supersede this is needed.
Haha.
For months n months, I have had to listen(read) to people on here talk down the value of Sags. Question why selling so high. Blah Blah. Not so funny now its the other models now is it!
Flame suit off.
Everyone always believes their car is worth more than it is. But in this article they were very undervalued. Normally I would not worry, BUT as someone pointed out in an insurance payout they are likely to listen to TVRCC more than me. So that sucks...
To get so angry and leave is sillyness. Maybe a newer article in the future to supersede this is needed.
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