New Exhaust - More Power
Discussion
scania164 said:
The only problem i have with all this is that my brothers engine has higher compression.Now all of a sudden std 4.5's are making nearly as much as the speced up RR engines and there all coming from TCS?.Now when Austec came on the scene claiming power gains they were slated and yet TCS has now remarkably pushed the boundries even further?.Cyclone didn't your Cerb used to give around 330bhp??? and now your getting 90bhp more without raising the compression ratio??.
I think you'll find it was the torque figures that were being questioned, looking at the numbers for Daggarts car now it seems about right at 372lbs/ft. I never believed those 400+lb/ft figures, they were pure fiction. The power figure of 430bhp for a HC RR spec engine was always possible and maybe a little more could be found.
Joo certainly has made big gains since he purchased his own rolling road, that's the benefit of in-house testing and development plus a lot of effort by Cyclone on his car. All good news for Cewrbie owners.
Ceejay
scania164 said:
The only problem i have with all this is that my brothers engine has higher compression.Now all of a sudden std 4.5's are making nearly as much as the speced up RR engines and there all coming from TCS?.Now when Austec came on the scene claiming power gains they were slated and yet TCS has now remarkably pushed the boundries even further?.Cyclone didn't your Cerb used to give around 330bhp??? and now your getting 90bhp more without raising the compression ratio??.
Cyclone1 said:
All the figures I get are about as close as you'll get to SRR as possible. What did Daggart's make on Austec's rollers, I think you know the answer to this so you'll get my point.
My car has also proved itself on the Drag Strip, if it didn't have the power then it wouldn't easily be the quickest there, driver technique included (whatever that is).
Like I've said Daggart's car is still the highest powered 4.5 out there and it still has the potential for more, as an owner I would be more than satisfied with that.
Jules.
My car has also proved itself on the Drag Strip, if it didn't have the power then it wouldn't easily be the quickest there, driver technique included (whatever that is).
Like I've said Daggart's car is still the highest powered 4.5 out there and it still has the potential for more, as an owner I would be more than satisfied with that.
Jules.
I think these two quotes sum things up quite well.
Apologies for going over the old ground again but: In the early days the Austec figures were just pie in the sky. The claim for Daggarts car was well over 400lb/ft and 440bhp. I also know what his car made at Austec this last time and it certainly wasn't 430bhp!
I've *always* said that the benchmark for a well tuned 2 valve engine is about 85lb.ft/litre. that makes 382lbs.ft for a 4.5 litre engine. Hey persto .. the figures you see often for good 4.5 litre cerbera engines are around 360lbs to 380lbs .. entirely typical of a good 2 valver. Daggart's car now falls in this range .. excellent , at last some proper figures
In fact if you want to know if a tuner is telling porkies about what they can do just look at the torque/litre figures they produce in their graphs .. if it's more than 85lb.ft/litre start looking for inconsistencies. This is a *very* reliable guide to just how good your engine and tuner is.
Daggart's car is now a very well modded 4.5, (2 rebuilds, MA remap , Bosch injectors, ACT induction, Red Rose spec etc etc) and is a very very powerful car which we all now applaud, now that the figures are believable!
No - one questions Cyclone's figures because it's all backed up in-depth. No cloak and dagger stuff, all on show, results to prove.
When everyone was saying it's not dyno results that count, it's the dragstrip we went and proved it there aswell .. result? well you know the result.
It's not that I want to say "i told you so" .. but it does kinda put some closure on the whole saga.
Not wanting to get too involved in this, but from what's been said, how much extra power/torque does a RR give over a standard 4.5 then?
Jools - a RR car, with higher compression, played with heads, your link decat, emerald chip, short hoses, bigger bore exhaust and all the other little tweaks you no doubt do, what's the most bhp/torque you'd be able to extract?
If Ceejay's gets 425-430hp after your latest series of mods you recently mentioned, surely you could get another 20-30 from the RR?
Jools - a RR car, with higher compression, played with heads, your link decat, emerald chip, short hoses, bigger bore exhaust and all the other little tweaks you no doubt do, what's the most bhp/torque you'd be able to extract?
If Ceejay's gets 425-430hp after your latest series of mods you recently mentioned, surely you could get another 20-30 from the RR?
Edited by _deejay_ on Wednesday 28th June 22:28
_deejay_ said:
Not wanting to get too involved in this, but from what's been said, how much extra power/torque does a RR give over a standard 4.5 then?
Jools - a RR car, with higher compression, played with heads, your link decat, emerald chip, short hoses, bigger bore exhaust and all the other little tweaks you no doubt do, what's the most bhp/torque you'd be able to extract?
If Ceejay's gets 425-430hp after your latest series of mods you recently mentioned, surely you could get another 20-30 from the RR?
Jools - a RR car, with higher compression, played with heads, your link decat, emerald chip, short hoses, bigger bore exhaust and all the other little tweaks you no doubt do, what's the most bhp/torque you'd be able to extract?
If Ceejay's gets 425-430hp after your latest series of mods you recently mentioned, surely you could get another 20-30 from the RR?
Edited by _deejay_ on Wednesday 28th June 22:28
it varies so much depending on the car. It also depends what mods you do.
To get the 400bhp at Nobles on Cliff's car we had all sorts of tricks in there .. tricks that we now know aren't very good value, but others that we know work really well. But that's the beauty of your own rollers, you get to know what works and what doesn't.
NickCC's car is a RR and makes 425bhp with the induction, just 5 short of Daggart's car .. we were secretly gutted to not beat the 430, but we will!
The great thing about having the same dyno as Charlie though is that the results are directly comparable because in shootout mode the test is an exact replica in all different locations around the world. As long as you're accurate with your corrections the tests are repeatable and comparable It'd be great to beat 430 with Cyclone's car as that's a std 4.5 internally, it's just by pure coincidence a bloody good one, and he drives it to perfection .. we've both been very very lucky with how that car has turned out. I'd like to think that 430bhp is achievable from a std 4.5 with all the external mods on, which means a RR would be 450ish ie about what a Tuscan racer produces. Which is what you'd expect
I don't think there'll be any gains to be made to the BossCerb .. from what I gather it's pretty well mapped as it is and has the mother of engines from the factory. It's a cerbera icon and I think should probably be left as it is, it's unique and it'd be a shame to change anything on it imo.
and has the mother of engines from the factory. It's a cerbera icon and I think should probably be left as it is, it's unique and it'd be a shame to change anything on it imo. TJW said:
Can you be 100% sure 'Cyclones' car is a std 4.5 internally? What year is it? Could be some TVR prototype etc or just some racer/GT parts already inside without anybody knowing? I know they did prototype engines on the RV8 released in the V8S. Now theres something to talk about
I think the fact it made very average figures to begin with suggests it's perfectly stock Tim.So yes we're 100% sure.
Autonotiv said:
So you are getting 400bhp, and you haven't done a thing to the engine?
No induction kits etc?
No induction kits etc?
Keep up at the back
Emerald, induction, linked decats, big bore exhaust, high flow filter, modified filter housing, plus some more tweaks coming in the next couple of weeks
I've only ever had one car make over 400bhp with just a remap, so I'm inclined to believe that was something not quite standard underneath. Most make 375-390 remapped with no other mods depending how good it is.
trackcar said:
TJW said:
Can you be 100% sure 'Cyclones' car is a std 4.5 internally? What year is it? Could be some TVR prototype etc or just some racer/GT parts already inside without anybody knowing? I know they did prototype engines on the RV8 released in the V8S. Now theres something to talk about
I think the fact it made very average figures to begin with suggests it's perfectly stock Tim.So yes we're 100% sure.
Surely you can't be '100% sure' unless you've dismantled the engine. However, anecdotal evidence suggest it's stock, based on your experience of other engines and their output.
Given that TVR seem to pick whatever parts are lying around at the factory at the time to build these engines, it's pretty difficult to assume anything is 'stock' IMHO.
However, given that you've proved you can liberate lots of power in every engine you've tuned, it really doesn't matter IMHO - the facts speak for themselves.
Oh and can I join the 'I don't like TrackCar club'. My last Cerb cost me a fortune and I much preferred the Speed 6. Now I want a Cerbie, just so I can buy the tuning kit, then suspension, then wheels, oh bu&&er .......
trackcar said:
TJW said:
Can you be 100% sure 'Cyclones' car is a std 4.5 internally? What year is it? Could be some TVR prototype etc or just some racer/GT parts already inside without anybody knowing? I know they did prototype engines on the RV8 released in the V8S. Now theres something to talk about
I think the fact it made very average figures to begin with suggests it's perfectly stock Tim.So yes we're 100% sure.
But, can you be 100%
You said it 'suggests', it could of been just badly 'timed' and you 'unleashed' itTJW said:
trackcar said:
TJW said:
Can you be 100% sure 'Cyclones' car is a std 4.5 internally? What year is it? Could be some TVR prototype etc or just some racer/GT parts already inside without anybody knowing? I know they did prototype engines on the RV8 released in the V8S. Now theres something to talk about
I think the fact it made very average figures to begin with suggests it's perfectly stock Tim.So yes we're 100% sure.
But, can you be 100%
You said it 'suggests', it could of been just badly 'timed' and you 'unleashed' itlol - thats the old argument that was used against the competition.... TJW - well spotted...
TJW said:
trackcar said:
TJW said:
Can you be 100% sure 'Cyclones' car is a std 4.5 internally? What year is it? Could be some TVR prototype etc or just some racer/GT parts already inside without anybody knowing? I know they did prototype engines on the RV8 released in the V8S. Now theres something to talk about
I think the fact it made very average figures to begin with suggests it's perfectly stock Tim.So yes we're 100% sure.
But, can you be 100%
You said it 'suggests', it could of been just badly 'timed' and you 'unleashed' iterm well we unleashed something .. 420bhp from a std 4.5 that's what!
trackcar said:
erm well we unleashed something .. 420bhp from a std 4.5 that's what!
Its not a feckin standard 4.5 anymore
The best standard cerbie I've ever seen was O'Boyles original baby (cos he was mates with Wheeler and got a good-un built from what I understand) - hang on, oops, isnt that my old car? lol
SXS said:
trackcar said:
erm well we unleashed something .. 420bhp from a std 4.5 that's what!
Its not a feckin standard 4.5 anymore
The best standard cerbie I've ever seen was O'Boyles original baby (cos he was mates with Wheeler and got a good-un built from what I understand) - hang on, oops, isnt that my old car? lol
The engine is standard
trackcar said:
SXS said:
trackcar said:
erm well we unleashed something .. 420bhp from a std 4.5 that's what!
Its not a feckin standard 4.5 anymore
The best standard cerbie I've ever seen was O'Boyles original baby (cos he was mates with Wheeler and got a good-un built from what I understand) - hang on, oops, isnt that my old car? lol
The engine is standard
Prove it?
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