New Exhaust - More Power

[trackcar]

Well it's not a GT block, there's no evidence of it ever having had any internal work, there's no documentation to suggest it was a factory special, there's no bhp evidence pre-tuning to suggest it is anything other than a std 4.5

short of stripping the engine (and why would we do that when it's going like a train) there's not much more prrof I can offer.

But the balance of probablility (and remember I've seen more Cerbies than you) suggests it's boggo std, and in my (not inconsiderable) experience I reckon 100% that's it's internally std.
that should be enough evidence for all but the most argumentative of dissenters.

If youre not happy with that that's your problem not mine

[BCA]

vixpy1 said:

This is getting silly again...

Even if Cyclones isnt standard (which im pretty certain it is) - Boss'Cerbs original is and with fewer mods its made 413bhp... 420+ are probably on the cards from the same mods as Cyclones car.

Worryingly, my baby runs less bhp/torque than the transmission losses on Cerbs! still shifts better than the ones that are in bits in various workshops though... (thats a joke before you jump at it.)

[SXS]

Lol - now you know what Daggart felt like when you all preached his wasnt standard! lol

Thursday afternoon and a few tequillas, sorry for my brash questions...

In all honesty, as far as I'm concerned, Cyclones baby is a testament of what a cerbera can achieve with external mods! And I have more than enough respect for the fella, A) for having the balls to really go for it on the strip and yes - I have more than once used his car as an example to other marquee die-hards to show the cerb is capable, b) to have the love he has for TVR's, I know in many ways we are the same, we want the best from our babies, all this mish mash rivalry is not my point in life, I just want the best for me and all who have the same petrol running through their veins.

Sooner or later we're all gonnna hit a brick wall, whats the wall gonna say?

Probably, theres only 10 cerberas left in the world - and you know what? My baby (which really isnt a cerbie anymore is it now?) and maybe a few other die-hards will keep our cerbies till we curl and die...

Btw, I'm gonna hold a party soon, a BIG party, and I want all to come, I'm gonna lay the past behind me, so if any focker doesnt turn up then we'll have some shit to sort out one way or another...

I love Cerberas - TOTALLY! ANYTHING TO DO WITH TVR performance - I LOVE! so guys stop yanking my nuts! I know I can be a bast-ard, but I've always meant well, I've still got a sour taste in my mouth from being shoved up the arse by some people I thought were alright... but I wanna leave the shite in the bog...

Can ANYONE beat Daggarts 430? Nope?????? lol, its cos you'll have to skim those heads man!

[Steve_T]

Being fair when I checked out if the GT prefix on my Cerb's block meant anything with the factory, they said no. Further, from what I understand no one has yet found a billet crank in an engine with a GT prefixed number on it. What you can say being fair to all sides is that there's a far greater degree of variation in power outputs on Cerb lumps than German artillery such as 911s and the like, because there's more variation in assembly, machining and the like.

Some folk who maintain TVRs for this community have no idea how to do it properly, so a base setup may be well down on power for the most basic of reasons. I say this based on my own personal experience. Where my car started out having be looked after by a reputable dealer and how she runs now, well, there's no comparison. Finally, I've yet to see a customer from either of the two camps who has ended up with a worse Cerb as a result of tuning work.

Now chill!

Steve.

[SXS]

Steve_T said:

Being fair when I checked out if the GT prefix on my Cerb's block meant anything with the factory, they said no. Further, from what I understand no one has yet found a billet crank in an engine with a GT prefixed number on it. What you can say being fair to all sides is that there's a far greater degree of variation in power outputs on Cerb lumps than German artillery such as 911s and the like, because there's more variation in assembly, machining and the like.

Some folk who maintain TVRs for this community have no idea how to do it properly, so a base setup may be well down on power for the most basic of reasons. I say this based on my own personal experience. Where my car started out having be looked after by a reputable dealer and how she runs now, well, there's no comparison. Finally, I've yet to see a customer from either of the two camps who has ended up with a worse Cerb as a result of tuning work.

Now chill!

Steve.

I dont understand you Steve, how can you be such a calm person? You are a feckin priest mate! After all the shite people have put you through (even me) you are still open about your views and keep an honest tab on things.... you are the kind of enthusiast and customer everyone needs...

Btw, I want to have your babies!

[Steve_T]

Sorry luv, you're just not my type

[SXS]

Steve_T said:

Sorry luv, you're just not my type

Tall, dark, well hung (honestly), is that not enough? ok ok, maybe I need to hit 16 stones, but hey, size doesnt matter does it?

[nitro cerb]

SXS said:

Tall, dark, well hung

Your missus being telling you about me again!
And dont start on mine.............please!

[TJW]

Did someone mention a party!!!

[satman]

trackcar said:

I've *always* said that the benchmark for a well tuned 2 valve engine is about 85lb.ft/litre. that makes 382lbs.ft for a 4.5 litre engine. Hey persto .. the figures you see often for good 4.5 litre cerbera engines are around 360lbs to 380lbs .. entirely typical of a good 2 valver. Daggart's car now falls in this range .. excellent , at last some proper figures

Yay! That makes mine a good un at 380 lbs/ft then....

[Cyclone1]

SXS said:

Can ANYONE beat Daggarts 430? Nope?????? lol, its cos you'll have to skim those heads man!

It's not a question of beating Daggart's 430 as his will probably go on to produce more, it's a question of 430 being the next target.

Skimmed Heads can wait for another day, as there are a couple of other mods to try first.

Jules

[scania164]

Things still arn't adding up.The AJP thrives as a Red Rose version because the heads are skimmed.Put a std Red Rose up against a std 4.5 and there can be up to 60bhp difference,differene being skimmed heads,balancing,slight porting to the heads.Seeing that Cyclones car has none of this done aparently and has only had mapping,exhaust,short inlet pipes etc still doesn't explain how his car has gained 90bhp.My brothers car pulled 403bhp before as a std Red Rose,imagine if he claimed an extra 90bhp for all the extra work on his engine!!!.

What losses Cyclone did you get on the rollers?,what was the bhp at the wheels and what was the torque?.Are you going to get the results independantly checked?,hub dyno maybe?.

[TJW]

scania164 said:

Are you going to get the results independantly checked?,hub dyno maybe?.

Your jokin. Rite? Haha.. everywhere else is 'out'

Edited by TJW on Thursday 29th June 19:50

[Mr Freefall]

scania164 said:

What losses Cyclone did you get on the rollers?,what was the bhp at the wheels

Anyone care to give at the wheels figures. I know for a fact that my car made exactly the same at the wheels on SRR dyno and Austec's, I have both graphs and they are exactly the same.

Mr F

[trackcar]

scania164 said:

Things still arn't adding up.The AJP thrives as a Red Rose version because the heads are skimmed.Put a std Red Rose up against a std 4.5 and there can be up to 60bhp difference,differene being skimmed heads,balancing,slight porting to the heads.Seeing that Cyclones car has none of this done aparently and has only had mapping,exhaust,short inlet pipes etc still doesn't explain how his car has gained 90bhp.My brothers car pulled 403bhp before as a std Red Rose,imagine if he claimed an extra 90bhp for all the extra work on his engine!!!.

What losses Cyclone did you get on the rollers?,what was the bhp at the wheels and what was the torque?.Are you going to get the results independantly checked?,hub dyno maybe?.

With all due respect things aren't adding up because you don't really understand what you're talking about. Don't take that the wrong way, but what you're saying doesn't make sense if you know the facts.

It was always explained to me (by none less than John Ravenscroft at the factory) that the RR made it's extra power because of the porting, the skimming and the remapping .. the accepted proportions were 50% came from the hardware (ie physical engine changes) and 50% came from the mapping.

A typical good 4.5 makes 360bhp. a typical good RR makes 400. That's 20bhp from the engine and 20 bhp from the mapping.

Of that 20bhp from the engine changes you might say half came from the porting and half from the compression hike .. that means only 10bhp from the compression hike and in all honesty this figure is probably a bit optimistic.

So now do you see how Cyclone's car really *can* only be 10bhp down from Daggarts?

[trackcar]

Cyclone's car at the wheels made 342.4bhp

[TJW]

, do they all make that much loss?

[scania164]

Trackcar,your buddy Cyclones car made 330bhp odd as std car and my brothers made 403bhp as a std car.My brothers has pulled 455bhp in a fourth gear run so his car is making 50bhp say with all the mods,your claimimg 90.You don't have to go that far back when you were all slating Austecs cars for barely making 400bhp,explain?.

[trackcar]

scania164 said:

Trackcar,your buddy Cyclones car made 330bhp odd as std car and my brothers made 403bhp as a std car.My brothers has pulled 455bhp in a fourth gear run so his car is making 50bhp say with all the mods,your claimimg 90.You don't have to go that far back when you were all slating Austecs cars for barely making 400bhp,explain?.

It's been explained more times than i care to recall but here's a resume of Cyclone's car and a potted history of cerbera tuning for those who've forgotten it. Anyone bored with this (as i am to be fair) can look away now and pick the thread back up again in a couple of posts' time.
All figures assume dyno dynamics rollers not some inflated figures in 4th gear ok?

An average 4.5 makes about 330-340, a good one is 360bhp capable, that's what we see all the time as a trend. This is well known now and largely undisputed except in autotrader adverts
We know the outright airflow capability of a std 4.5 is 390bhp. We know this because the good remapped cars come in at around 390bhp. So that's between 30 and 60bhp increase depending on your starting point. Cyclone's car makes 60bhp gain cos it started low and ended up being a 390 bhp producer.

As stated above, a RR car makes an extra 20 bhp from it's hardware mods, so that would make a remapped RR about 410bhp which is also what we see, so seems what J Ravenscroft told me all those years ago holds up, as i would expect as he's a top bloke not prone to exagerration, unlike TVR's marketting department at the time

We know that the std induction is tuned for peak around 4600rpm, this holds true in reality too. In fact the engines follows normal 4 cylinder tuning theory which is good as it's essentially two four cylinder engines on a common crank.

We know that to make more bhp you have to hold the torque at higher revs, so to easily do this we shorten the inlets to tune the length more favourably to higher rpm. With this we see a std remapped car with short induction make 400 ish bhp. The evidence all supports this so far you agree?

To go further you need to pulse tune the exhaust with different manifolds or change the exhaust characteristics by other means, i do this by linking the decats together. In fact they need to be linked closer to the heads than you can do in reality, but because the gearbox is in the way the earliest you can realistically link them is the decat pipes. This typically adds 5-8bhp throughout the range. We now have 405-408 bhp. To prove this i did a car the other day in this spec and it made 404 bhp. Close enough i think. Cyclone's car was a bit exceptional by now, for some reason it flows about 1% more than the norm (it happens sometimes, coincidently you get a combination of parts that work well together) so his car was making about 410bhp.

The filter is now starting to become a restriction, so we added a high flow filter, plus the std exhaust is now a factor where it wasn't at lower hp levels .. changing both these got another 10bhp. Not big increases now as you will notice but every little helps. We still haven't thinned the throttle spindles down or matched the inlet manifold to the heads either.

Please tell me if any of this isn't making sense to you?

Incidently we have run Cyclone's car in 4th gear some time ago before the latest series of mods and once it peaked at 450.7bhp but i'm telling you now that it's a bollox figure for the spec of the car.

When we've finished our programme of improvements we'll take the car to SRR to get the final definitive figures from it.

[ceejay]

scania164 said:

Trackcar,your buddy Cyclones car made 330bhp odd as std car and my brothers made 403bhp as a std car.My brothers has pulled 455bhp in a fourth gear run so his car is making 50bhp say with all the mods,your claimimg 90.You don't have to go that far back when you were all slating Austecs cars for barely making 400bhp,explain?.

And there was me thinking it made a 'real' 430bhp at SRR. Looks like Cyclones car has stirred things up a bit, well done that man.

Joo, don't waste your time trying to explain things to guys who only want to see it their way. The figures speak for themselves, on the dyno and on the strip.

Ceejay