short induction no map
Discussion
Hi chaps. I recently had my 4.5 in for sercice and a few small jobs where it was noticed that 2 of the standard induction pipes were wrecked. I have already replaced 2 and have found you can no longer purchase them individualy. Any how long story short Ive bitten the bullit and bought one of those act induction kits. (£488) same price as i was quoted for original induction pipes!! I hadnt realy budgetd for this so am gonna fit it without the chip or re map for now. Anyone out there ran one of these kits without proper map?? the car also has no cats. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Ta lads.
Ta lads.
My 4.5 has the short induction kit and no chip or remap. Runs a little lumpy on light throttle but love it when you give it maxi beans. Also pinks if suddenly increase throttle at low revs, apart from those it is great, seems to run the correct mixture and is very responsive to the slightest input from the right foot.
I will be looking into a remap as well some time, can any one let me know what I could expect to see an improvement in by spending the extra?
I will be looking into a remap as well some time, can any one let me know what I could expect to see an improvement in by spending the extra?
Doh! Joo remapped mine in March and gave me the original pipes to bring home. I had a nose at them and chucked them out, thinking I wouldn't need them again. A couple looked a bit tired and flat but the rest were okay - you could have had them. Kicking myself now cos I hoard so much crap that is unlikely to be needed. Sorry!
There is no point at all in fitting short induction pipes without a remap. Will it damage the engine? Possibly, I dont know. But I definitely wouldn't risk it on my own car. Your messing about with a race engine not a 1.2 Nova! Get it booked in for a re-map asap, it makes a big difference.
Nickccc said:
If you can hear it detting your mad to continue using it untill it's remapped.
That's one way to knacker an engine.
If it were running I may hear detonation but as mentioned in the original post I have purchased the kit and am yet to install it.That's one way to knacker an engine.
Thank you for the concern though and i am aware of pinking engines and the damage to pistons it can cause.
I am not overly familiar with the management used on the ajp8 4.5 but would imagine it would have scope on its standard map to cope with an increase of airflow that a revised induction set up may produce. How otherwise does it work with greatly varying ambient intake temeratures ie freezing (read as) dense air and the oposite being red hot with a relatively low oxygen content. though aware it may not yeild the same results as a custom map.
rossmcdee said:
I am not overly familiar with the management used on the ajp8 4.5 but would imagine it would have scope on its standard map to cope with an increase of airflow that a revised induction set up may produce.
Unfortunately it can't, its an "Alpha N" management system, a race car system as JensenA said. Basically it only looks at rev's and throttle position to calculate how much fuel to injected, there's some compensation in the form of intake temp and obviously lambda feedback but it doesn't measure air flow directly.Therefore when you fit the short induction, the engine is able to scavenge more air (increased volumetric efficiency) and therfore requires extra fueling, but because of no remap, the engine thinks its still standard and will fuel as for standard.
Also, better volumetric efficiency could mean less timing advance would be required. But if you're running the standard map, you'll be on the original timing advance and hence the pinking
Obviously this is over simplified, I expect the standard map runs rich at WOT and better fuel might help the pinking, also its only going to cause problems when you're driving it hard and at high rev's.
Anyone know if Raceprove can offer a short induction kit and remap at low low Joolz prices, I've got a 4.5 here crying out for one
Rich.
Boosted Cerb said:
rossmcdee said:
I am not overly familiar with the management used on the ajp8 4.5 but would imagine it would have scope on its standard map to cope with an increase of airflow that a revised induction set up may produce.
Unfortunately it can't, its an "Alpha N" management system, a race car system as JensenA said. Basically it only looks at rev's and throttle position to calculate how much fuel to injected, there's some compensation in the form of intake temp and obviously lambda feedback but it doesn't measure air flow directly.Therefore when you fit the short induction, the engine is able to scavenge more air (increased volumetric efficiency) and therfore requires extra fueling, but because of no remap, the engine thinks its still standard and will fuel as for standard.
Also, better volumetric efficiency could mean less timing advance would be required. But if you're running the standard map, you'll be on the original timing advance and hence the pinking
Obviously this is over simplified, I expect the standard map runs rich at WOT and better fuel might help the pinking, also its only going to cause problems when you're driving it hard and at high rev's.
Anyone know if Raceprove can offer a short induction kit and remap at low low Joolz prices, I've got a 4.5 here crying out for one
Rich.
Boosted Cerb said:
rossmcdee said:
I am not overly familiar with the management used on the ajp8 4.5 but would imagine it would have scope on its standard map to cope with an increase of airflow that a revised induction set up may produce.
Unfortunately it can't, its an "Alpha N" management system, a race car system as JensenA said. Basically it only looks at rev's and throttle position to calculate how much fuel to injected, there's some compensation in the form of intake temp and obviously lambda feedback but it doesn't measure air flow directly.Therefore when you fit the short induction, the engine is able to scavenge more air (increased volumetric efficiency) and therfore requires extra fueling, but because of no remap, the engine thinks its still standard and will fuel as for standard.
Also, better volumetric efficiency could mean less timing advance would be required. But if you're running the standard map, you'll be on the original timing advance and hence the pinking
Obviously this is over simplified, I expect the standard map runs rich at WOT and better fuel might help the pinking, also its only going to cause problems when you're driving it hard and at high rev's.
Anyone know if Raceprove can offer a short induction kit and remap at low low Joolz prices, I've got a 4.5 here crying out for one
Rich.
Some really good advice on here, so best bet would be to get a fueling check done on a rolling road after installation. If the fueling then requires adjusting you will need to book the car in for a remap.
The other option you have is to see if any of the owners on this forum have any spare original pipes, if they do then you can run these in the short term.
For the guy earlier in the thread who is running short induction with no map and can detect detonation / pinking etc then you are setting yourself up for engine failure. For the sake of a remap you'll save yourself a fortune!! It's a no brainer.
As no Cerb is the same then it is quite possible that some engines could run fine without the need for a remap when short induction is fitted, however the number that are ok is likely to be very small. For most when you fit the short induction without adjusting the fueling you can get a placebo effect that the performance is improved and all is ok, but this is usually not the case, what you tend to find is that below 5k rpm in most points of the range you'll be slightly down on power and torque, however the placebo effect kicks in because the short induction has smoothed out the "normally" humpy curves from 2k-5k rpm so the delivery "feels" much stronger. This is another reason why it is adviseable to either get a fueling chip or have a remap to fully realise the potential provided by the Whirlwind and ACT Short Induction kits.
This graph shows what I am saying albeit overlayed with an early Emerald map, oh the good old development days seem so far away now .
Jules.
The other option you have is to see if any of the owners on this forum have any spare original pipes, if they do then you can run these in the short term.
For the guy earlier in the thread who is running short induction with no map and can detect detonation / pinking etc then you are setting yourself up for engine failure. For the sake of a remap you'll save yourself a fortune!! It's a no brainer.
As no Cerb is the same then it is quite possible that some engines could run fine without the need for a remap when short induction is fitted, however the number that are ok is likely to be very small. For most when you fit the short induction without adjusting the fueling you can get a placebo effect that the performance is improved and all is ok, but this is usually not the case, what you tend to find is that below 5k rpm in most points of the range you'll be slightly down on power and torque, however the placebo effect kicks in because the short induction has smoothed out the "normally" humpy curves from 2k-5k rpm so the delivery "feels" much stronger. This is another reason why it is adviseable to either get a fueling chip or have a remap to fully realise the potential provided by the Whirlwind and ACT Short Induction kits.
This graph shows what I am saying albeit overlayed with an early Emerald map, oh the good old development days seem so far away now
.Jules.
Edited by Cyclone1 on Wednesday 17th February 10:41
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