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JazzyO

Original Poster:

995 posts

50 months

[news] 
Sunday 8th April 2012 quote quote all
TimJMS said:
Jazzy, any reason you've not kept the original exhaust configuration?
Hi Tim,

nothing to do with me, I bought the car with the current exhaust. It is NOT, as many people believe, a 512BB exhaust but it is an ANSA sports exhaust specifically developed for the 365BB in the 1970's. I believe it has been on the car virtually from new - I should actually ask the first owner, who I spoke to on the phone a couple of years ago. It sounds better than the original exhaust, and is much more durable. For many years, the original exhaust was unobtainable, but I have now heard that someone ordered one from Quicksilver in the UK, so presumably they can be ordered again.


Onno

TimJMS

2,044 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Thanks for clarification. thumbup

Camlet

301 posts

18 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Thanks. Great car and video. Two questions please. I understand less than 400 365 BB's were made and less than 60 in RHD. What do you think a good RHD example is worth, to buy? And how does a 365 BB experience compare to a 512 BB? Cheers.

JazzyO

Original Poster:

995 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
299 LHD 365BB's were made, and 88 RHD ones. Of the 88, there were 58 orders from Maranello Concessionaires, so 58 original UK 365BB's.

The biggest problem with Boxers is finding a good one. There are very few out there, and of those few there are only a couple that actually run well. Mine was restored just before I bought it, but it took me a long time to get to be reliable. So what a car is worth is a bit difficult to say, it is quite car dependent. The Boxer market is also difficult, they are underappreciated and misunderstood, more so in the UK than anywhere else IMHO. On a global scale, the 365 is by far the most desired and prices for a good LHD one are significantly higher than 512BB's and 512BBi's. In the UK, however, this does not seem to be the case. When I bought my car, I drove a 512BB and a 512BBi at the same shop on the same day, and the 365 was the least expensive. It was one of the reasons I bought a RHD one, it saved me about GBP40k.

In Europe, a 365BB is currently for sale for €300k. Whilst this is a fantasy asking price, there is slowly getting to be more recognition for these cars. Many people have stated that the car was far better as a driving machine (but not as a touring machine) over a Daytona. If I would be selling a top LHD 365BB, I would be asking €200k. For the UK market, prices are rising but there still seems to be a lot of resistance to pay much more than GBP100k.

My car is for sale, just not yet advertised as I plan to take her to Scotland in early May for a farewell tour. But should anyone be interested, you're welcome to contact me. She will need to go to a good home so she won't be sold to just anyone, and my price will not have a lot of bargaining room. But you will get one of the best Boxers out there, with a great history file going back to Birmingham, 1st July 1974. It is one with desirable specification: it has the non-adjustable seats and the old clamshell of the very first 365BB's, but it has the upgraded gearbox and some other improvements of the second series. And I just love that 8-track radio which is specified on the delivery sheet of the Ferrari factory. If it wasn't RHD, I would never sell it.

As for the driving differences between the Boxers, I wrote an article about that day at Fosker's in 2008, when I drove all three. I then decided to buy the 365BB, which for me was a car that was significantly more fun. The 512BB is a better car, particularly concering the clutch and move to dry sump, but it is less manic. It has more torque, in a flatter curve too, but a longer first gear and a lower rev limit. It has a similar sound to the 365BB up to the 6,000rmp mark but then the 365BB starts screaming much more, giving you that sensation of the 312T of Niki Lauda (also a flat 12 engine). The 365 engine is more rev happy, better on the cam, and people who have owned a 512BB have told me my car is definitely faster. I have not had a chance to test directly against a 512BB - if I do get a chance I will make a video of that, as I know a guy in the Netherlands with a fantastic 512BB. The article I wrote you can find in the freely downloadable magazine FerrariLife Quarterly #10 on FerrariLife.com. But - I also have video of those test drives and I was editing that recently. I will try and get that video up soom and will post the link here.

Once you start knowing these cars better, the styling differences on the 512BB, to my eyes are significant and for the worse. To my eyes, a 512 doesn't look much like a 365BB. The 512 has a much flatter stance, the rear deck lying lower. The 365 has a 'pouncing' stance, giving a more sporty look. The rear deck is shorter, giving cleaner lines, but the 512BB rear deck has also been rounded and softened, which is not an improvement. The move of the exhausts from out to in was also a strange one to me, giving a less aggressive look. The lack of a front spoiler, whilst a negative at speeds over 160mph, makes the car look much better at the front, too. Unlike a lot of 365BB's, my car has the original 215 'balloon' tyres, which for me give just the right 1974 look, especially with the knock-ons. Later, wider and flatter, tyres give better cornering speeds but ruin both the ride and the look, with massive holes in the wheel arches.

For me, as is clear by now, the original is best. Although technically the lesser car, it gives the best driving sensation and sheer feeling of driving a '70ies glam rocketship into the Apocalypse! Having said all that, the 512BB is great, and so is the BBi. They just have different personalities, and you must try which one suits you best.

A couple of examples highlighting the differences in design.

Comparing the rear decks of the 512BB and 365BB (mine with non-original exhaust):





Lack of front spoiler and covered foglights.

365BB



512BB


Difference in stance. Hard to capture on photos, but note the line on the side of my car dipping down towards the front, compared to the flat stance of the yellow 512BB.





Edited by JazzyO on Monday 9th April 09:24

Streetrod

4,982 posts

75 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
JazzyO said:
LOL! You guys crack me up!

I hope this shot restores my reputation as an International Man of Mystery? smile

Yes you do look better in a dress laugh

Advertisement

FleshMechanic

2,498 posts

45 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Thanks for sharing. Great insight into the difference between the 365 and 512. I've never taken to time to note the subtle yet significant changes.

I loved the other youtube video of driving around Johannesburg in numerous Porsches. From the title, I was half expecting it to be the Porsche concours, but it was better than that. Just a couple of petrolheads enjoying the cars.

smile

TimJMS

2,044 posts

120 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
For me the "i" doesnt even come into it. That is simply a Testarossa precursor and a sop to the California market.

512, or 365 all the way. They are 'my' Nick Mason's 250 equivalent. Enjoy.

JazzyO

Original Poster:

995 posts

50 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
FleshMechanic said:
Just a couple of petrolheads enjoying the cars.

smile
Absolutely, I'm not a Ferrari guy only. The guy driving the orange 911S has bought my LHD 365BB for restoration, and he provides some of the commentary in the BB video. Fantastic guy, very knowledgeable too. His friend John is the owner of the 6 Porsches in that garage you see in the vid, and since that video was shot 15 months ago he has bought another 2 964RS's. He now owns 4! I think it's safe to say he likes them. Good man. smile


Onno

Camlet

301 posts

18 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
JazzyO said:
299 LHD 365BB's were made, and 88 RHD ones. Of the 88, there were 58 orders from Maranello Concessionaires, so 58 original UK 365BB's.

The biggest problem with Boxers is finding a good one. There are very few out there, and of those few there are only a couple that actually run well. Mine was restored just before I bought it, but it took me a long time to get to be reliable. So what a car is worth is a bit difficult to say, it is quite car dependent. The Boxer market is also difficult, they are underappreciated and misunderstood, more so in the UK than anywhere else IMHO. On a global scale, the 365 is by far the most desired and prices for a good LHD one are significantly higher than 512BB's and 512BBi's. In the UK, however, this does not seem to be the case. When I bought my car, I drove a 512BB and a 512BBi at the same shop on the same day, and the 365 was the least expensive. It was one of the reasons I bought a RHD one, it saved me about GBP40k.

In Europe, a 365BB is currently for sale for €300k. Whilst this is a fantasy asking price, there is slowly getting to be more recognition for these cars. Many people have stated that the car was far better as a driving machine (but not as a touring machine) over a Daytona. If I would be selling a top LHD 365BB, I would be asking €200k. For the UK market, prices are rising but there still seems to be a lot of resistance to pay much more than GBP100k.

My car is for sale, just not yet advertised as I plan to take her to Scotland in early May for a farewell tour. But should anyone be interested, you're welcome to contact me. She will need to go to a good home so she won't be sold to just anyone, and my price will not have a lot of bargaining room. But you will get one of the best Boxers out there, with a great history file going back to Birmingham, 1st July 1974. It is one with desirable specification: it has the non-adjustable seats and the old clamshell of the very first 365BB's, but it has the upgraded gearbox and some other improvements of the second series. And I just love that 8-track radio which is specified on the delivery sheet of the Ferrari factory. If it wasn't RHD, I would never sell it.

As for the driving differences between the Boxers, I wrote an article about that day at Fosker's in 2008, when I drove all three. I then decided to buy the 365BB, which for me was a car that was significantly more fun. The 512BB is a better car, particularly concering the clutch and move to dry sump, but it is less manic. It has more torque, in a flatter curve too, but a longer first gear and a lower rev limit. It has a similar sound to the 365BB up to the 6,000rmp mark but then the 365BB starts screaming much more, giving you that sensation of the 312T of Niki Lauda (also a flat 12 engine). The 365 engine is more rev happy, better on the cam, and people who have owned a 512BB have told me my car is definitely faster. I have not had a chance to test directly against a 512BB - if I do get a chance I will make a video of that, as I know a guy in the Netherlands with a fantastic 512BB. The article I wrote you can find in the freely downloadable magazine FerrariLife Quarterly #10 on FerrariLife.com. But - I also have video of those test drives and I was editing that recently. I will try and get that video up soom and will post the link here.

Once you start knowing these cars better, the styling differences on the 512BB, to my eyes are significant and for the worse. To my eyes, a 512 doesn't look much like a 365BB. The 512 has a much flatter stance, the rear deck lying lower. The 365 has a 'pouncing' stance, giving a more sporty look. The rear deck is shorter, giving cleaner lines, but the 512BB rear deck has also been rounded and softened, which is not an improvement. The move of the exhausts from out to in was also a strange one to me, giving a less aggressive look. The lack of a front spoiler, whilst a negative at speeds over 160mph, makes the car look much better at the front, too. Unlike a lot of 365BB's, my car has the original 215 'balloon' tyres, which for me give just the right 1974 look, especially with the knock-ons. Later, wider and flatter, tyres give better cornering speeds but ruin both the ride and the look, with massive holes in the wheel arches.

For me, as is clear by now, the original is best. Although technically the lesser car, it gives the best driving sensation and sheer feeling of driving a '70ies glam rocketship into the Apocalypse! Having said all that, the 512BB is great, and so is the BBi. They just have different personalities, and you must try which one suits you best.

A couple of examples highlighting the differences in design.

Comparing the rear decks of the 512BB and 365BB (mine with non-original exhaust):





Lack of front spoiler and covered foglights.

365BB



512BB


Difference in stance. Hard to capture on photos, but note the line on the side of my car dipping down towards the front, compared to the flat stance of the yellow 512BB.





Edited by JazzyO on Monday 9th April 09:24
Thanks for the information. Very comprehensive and provides plenty of food for thought. Much appreciated!

JazzyO

Original Poster:

995 posts

50 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
One thing I shamefully forgot to mention: the rebuild was done by Carrs of Exeter. Fabulous work, Harvey and Mark, but all are fantastic guys!

My specialist in the Netherlands, Forza Service, also a top quality outfit. Together they've made this car sing. Very grateful.


Onno

williamp

11,262 posts

142 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
I'm not really a ferrari person, but I've always loved these two brotherly cars. Magnificant
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