Quick question - Enzo respray

[TonyHetherington]

I know when he's done threads in the past it's killed my computer (!) so he needs to split it into pages or something I think

[Candellara]

AndrewW-G said:

The paint system used by Al, doesnt require baking

Hmmm, i'm sure they know what they're doing judging by the amount of high end cars in the photo's but, there will be signs that paintwork has not been done in an oven such as:

The overall finish will not have a deep lustre, it will often be hazy and the finish uneven.

If the finish has been sprayed with lots of particles in it then it will have been ‘flatted’ and polished. Non baked paintwork will drop in shine after a while as the drying process takes place. Yes it can be buffed back up but it will drop down again, it just is not fully dry because it was not dried at 65c.

Where dust and particles are ‘nibbed’ out of the final finish fine scratches are left. These scratches are polished out but again they will come back, non cured paintwork will take months to dry out fully so you will not have that tough durability to protect your base colour.

In a low bake oven the heat is controlled, the air flow is controlled, all overspray is removed and not left to settle in the fresh paintwork. The air is changed as often as 6 times or more per minute so it is fresh and particle free, providing the car is maked up cleanly the job will be beautiful. The air supply is dried and filtered before it reaches the spray gun so there will be no particles in the airline.

I've never used them and i'm sure they do a great job but it'd be good to know whether they do use an oven. As per a previous post, the cost of low bake ovens is such, that i'm sure they do, it's just there website doesn't say it.

[AndrewW-G]

Candellara said:

good points

I can see your point and a low bake booth is generally a good idea, however the paint system they use (I've seen the MDS's) doesn’t require baking to achieve perfect results

[Streetrod]

Candellara said:

AndrewW-G said:

The paint system used by Al, doesnt require baking

Hmmm, i'm sure they know what they're doing judging by the amount of high end cars in the photo's but, there will be signs that paintwork has not been done in an oven such as:

The overall finish will not have a deep lustre, it will often be hazy and the finish uneven.

If the finish has been sprayed with lots of particles in it then it will have been ‘flatted’ and polished. Non baked paintwork will drop in shine after a while as the drying process takes place. Yes it can be buffed back up but it will drop down again, it just is not fully dry because it was not dried at 65c.

Where dust and particles are ‘nibbed’ out of the final finish fine scratches are left. These scratches are polished out but again they will come back, non cured paintwork will take months to dry out fully so you will not have that tough durability to protect your base colour.

In a low bake oven the heat is controlled, the air flow is controlled, all overspray is removed and not left to settle in the fresh paintwork. The air is changed as often as 6 times or more per minute so it is fresh and particle free, providing the car is maked up cleanly the job will be beautiful. The air supply is dried and filtered before it reaches the spray gun so there will be no particles in the airline.

I've never used them and i'm sure they do a great job but it'd be good to know whether they do use an oven. As per a previous post, the cost of low bake ovens is such, that i'm sure they do, it's just there website doesn't say it.

Candellara, I'm not looking to pick a fight but just wanted to pick you up on a couple of your points. The final finish of a paint job is not always dependant on the use of an oven. Some paint systems do not require them and they will set just as hard as an oven baked system. As for longevity again most systems are pretty similar.

The control of dust and as important moisture when spaying are always a problem. The joy of a booth with an air circulation system is not to be underestimated, the best ones suck out through the roof rather than the floor so not dragging dry paint in the air back down onto the car. You also need a very good moisture capture system in your air line; a drop of water landing on your wet paint job will ruin your day as you have said.

The first cars I painted I did at home. I lined my garage with plastic sheets, wetted down all the surfaces and controlled the heat with an old fan heater. The result ended up winning top paint awards at a number of shows.

[kds keltec]

painting using "air" drying paint is fine for normal painting process , BUT as said above comes with pitfalls.

The use of an spray booth does open up to the use of all the specialist products available such as
scratch resistant clear coats (ceramic clear coats) PPG D8122 CeramiClear has a window of around 24 hours before the cross linking has completed *(when baked at 65 deg c)

After the "cerami"clear top coat is sprayed, the nano particles of Fumed Silica (SiO2), which are synthetically engineered, migrate to the top 0.2 mils 5 microns of the clear coat as it is curing.

If you remove this portion of the clear layer of paint (de nibbing and polishing any imperfections), the paint under it will be much softer and will not polish out or react the same way the nano particle portion did or would.
You will at some level have compromised the the finish on the car.


The lacquer will also cure at room temp (20 deg c) but cure much slower and you wont be able to keep the finish spotless dirt free without the use of spray oven , so a lot of correction will be needed , thus undoing the whole point of some top coats in the way they perform.

kelly

[Streetrod]

Kelly, can I ask, do you guys spray cars now and if so which system do you use?

[Blukoo]

TonyHetherington said:

I know when he's done threads in the past it's killed my computer (!) so he needs to split it into pages or something I think

If I'm honest. I think he includes far too many pictures. So many of them are unnecessary.

[Candellara]

Streetrod said:

Candellara, I'm not looking to pick a fight but just wanted to pick you up on a couple of your points. The final finish of a paint job is not always dependant on the use of an oven. Some paint systems do not require them and they will set just as hard as an oven baked system. As for longevity again most systems are pretty similar.

The control of dust and as important moisture when spaying are always a problem. The joy of a booth with an air circulation system is not to be underestimated, the best ones suck out through the roof rather than the floor so not dragging dry paint in the air back down onto the car. You also need a very good moisture capture system in your air line; a drop of water landing on your wet paint job will ruin your day as you have said.

The first cars I painted I did at home. I lined my garage with plastic sheets, wetted down all the surfaces and controlled the heat with an old fan heater. The result ended up winning top paint awards at a number of shows.

Fight? Me neither :-)

Just really making a point. As said, i don't know whether these guys use an oven or not but, in todays day and age i don't know why any bodyshop painting very high end cars would not use one given the benefits they offer?

A freshly polished and painted car will look very nice straight out of the paintshop, but what will it look like in 3,6 and 12 months time?

[SeanCW]

Given the way an Enzo left the factory, would'nt the purist regard a respray as devaluing the car.

Seeing the weave through the thin paint being a well quoted characteristic of the car.

I thought that the name of the game was to stay as original as possible.

Could'nt someone say down the line say that £20k+ paint job means the car is worth significantly less compared with a similar untouched car, when it comes to selling it.

[Candellara]

Actually, the cost of repainting Ferrari's / exotica etc does make me chuckle.

The reality is that it is just another body that needs prepping and painting. The cost should actually be no more than painting any other car? yet, massive premiums are normally accepted.

[AndrewW-G]

Candellara said:

Actually, the cost of repainting Ferrari's / exotica etc does make me chuckle.

The reality is that it is just another body that needs prepping and painting. The cost should actually be no more than painting any other car? yet, massive premiums are normally accepted.

A few years ago, Mike Sheehan did a great article, detailing the difference in painting a Ferrari against a Mercedes. It makes interesting reading, although probably wont apply to the modern appliance grade cars.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_0006.h...

[Candellara]

kds keltec said:

painting using "air" drying paint is fine for normal painting process , BUT as said above comes with pitfalls.

The use of an spray booth does open up to the use of all the specialist products available such as
scratch resistant clear coats (ceramic clear coats) PPG D8122 CeramiClear has a window of around 24 hours before the cross linking has completed *(when baked at 65 deg c)

After the "cerami"clear top coat is sprayed, the nano particles of Fumed Silica (SiO2), which are synthetically engineered, migrate to the top 0.2 mils 5 microns of the clear coat as it is curing.

If you remove this portion of the clear layer of paint (de nibbing and polishing any imperfections), the paint under it will be much softer and will not polish out or react the same way the nano particle portion did or would.
You will at some level have compromised the the finish on the car.


The lacquer will also cure at room temp (20 deg c) but cure much slower and you wont be able to keep the finish spotless dirt free without the use of spray oven , so a lot of correction will be needed , thus undoing the whole point of some top coats in the way they perform.

kelly

Thanks for clarifying

50K, 100k, £250k Supercar. How would you paint it? Oven with top quality materials and latest paint technology?.....as only the best will do?

Crude analogy, but i'm wary of "cost effective" paint jobs. Quality doesn't naturally come "cheap / inexpensive"?

Would you dress a well heeled woman in New Look dress?

Edited by Candellara on Friday 20th April 20:03

Edited by Candellara on Friday 20th April 20:04

[DHE]

Jaykaybi said:

Transmitter Man said:

Here's a fellow TVR owner that's just had a respray completed by them.

The thread gets into it after a few pages:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Phil

I'm really hesitant about posting this, because it's quite brazenly pissing on someone else's parade and at the end of the day if the customer is happy then the job was good enough, but I'm looking at the pics of that TVR and I can't help thinking it looks like a result I'd reject.





The amount of swirl marks and machine marring evident is unacceptable, IMHO. If I get a new paint job on my pride and joy, I want it to look like new paint - surely that's not unreasonable?

I was at Alsa a while ago and the standard of work is top notch. The TVR looked very good when I was there.

[Candellara]

DHE said:

I was at Alsa a while ago and the standard of work is top notch. The TVR looked very good when I was there.

I'm sure it is, but it would be nice to know if an oven is used?

[steelej]

Blukoo said:

I realise that. I was just trying to get some figures to shoot down the other person in the argument.

The only argument you need is that by having a now non original paint Enzo it would have lost more in value than any paint job would cost, this is why you get it detailed. You would never repaint a car like that unless the paint was absolutely fked

John.

[andy74b]

My F40 was painted here

http://www.zanasiferrari.it/ita/home/home.aspx

Budget £15-20k for a proper job. Doubt value has really changed much and not really bothered as will never sell it.

Having 2 cars sprayed at moment and imagine costs will be bit less as keeping in UK.

[Candellara]

andy74b said:

My F40 was painted here

http://www.zanasiferrari.it/ita/home/home.aspx

Budget £15-20k for a proper job. Doubt value has really changed much and not really bothered as will never sell it.

Having 2 cars sprayed at moment and imagine costs will be bit less as keeping in UK.

That's impressive....what a facility.

However, the devils advocate in me, duly notes that all cars are painted in a low bake oven - which IMO they should be, given todays paint technology.

I rest my case.

Facilities cost money - which are naturally marginally charged . Cost vs Price.

[andy74b]

Candellara said:

That's impressive....what a facility.

However, the devils advocate in me, duly notes that all cars are painted in a low bake oven.

I rest my case.

Facilities cost money - which are naturally marginally charged . Cost vs Price.

Agreed. I used to to spray my own cars but with cars of this value it has to be professional jobs with oven.

[Streetrod]

steelej said:

Blukoo said:

I realise that. I was just trying to get some figures to shoot down the other person in the argument.

The only argument you need is that by having a now non original paint Enzo it would have lost more in value than any paint job would cost, this is why you get it detailed. You would never repaint a car like that unless the paint was absolutely fked

John.

Ok how about this one then. As I said before the paint on the Enzo was never that great from the factory and very thin. If you use the car then at some point in the next few years it is going to need a respray. Should you keep as is and drive around in a tatty car and call it patina, or should you get it resprayed. And which version would be more valuable?

[Candellara]

Streetrod said:

Ok how about this one then. As I said before the paint on the Enzo was never that great from the factory and very thin. If you use the car then at some point in the next few years it is going to need a respray. Should you keep as is and drive around in a tatty car and call it patina, or should you get it resprayed. And which version would be more valuable?

Tough one....and TBH, not qualified to answer as i don't currently own a car of that value / importance. From a collectors point of view i'd guess there are people on both sides?

If i was buying for a collection, i'd want it pristine and recognise that it's a car that needs paint due to age and use. If the car was purchased to "use", stonechips wouldn't be significant?

Be interesting to hear Andy's feelings on the matter