The market for 360s...

[AdvocatusD]

bromers2 said:

(PS i know the exhasut was only one point of your concerns with the car - but all the other ones could of been addressed for a small outlay of cash - would they of made it a better car ?)

I actually explored that actively with two cars, my having restored cars in far, far worse condition. I'm not afraid of a project in the least, but was told not to bother by the independant I sent all the (26!) pictures to.

GR1FF1F said:

I can honestly say that, a few weeks in, it's all I'd hoped for and expected.Cheers

Absolutely delighted to hear, enjoy! Sounds like maybe I had a little bad luck to go with a few bad cars. Thank you for the good thoughts.

[UH-Matt]

CooperS said:

We do need pictures!

With regard to the o/p i can understand why anyone would get fustrated when second hand items are described as perfect when they anything but. However if the cars in the price bracket your looking at are all coming up with issues i cant see how they higher priced cars are over priced. Surely they are priced to take into account those below them.

Exactly what I was going to add. If you are looking at the lower end of the market because the more expensive cars seem "overpriced" then obviously there is a reason the cheaper cars are cheaper - condition.

[GR1FF1F]

bromers2 said:

- if you spend 2 hours cleaning/polishing a exhaust does this make it a better car than one that hasn't ? (I'm for ever doing my Strad - but a lot of non-petrol heads call me sad).

Off topic

Not sad, quite like the shiny exhaust, especially as it is somewhat visible through the cover. What do you use to keep it in good condition ? Wire wool ? Metal polish ? That's what I tend to use on tail pipes.

Edited to say, I have to attribute that approach to the fabulous Mr Francis Maloney, aka Paddy328

Edited by GR1FF1F on Friday 18th May 13:23

[TISPKJ]

On the subject of the exhaust, correct me if I am wrong but that picture looks like the standard steel exhaust and of course will rust in due course regardless.
Most cars I would suggest have an aftermarket stainless capristo or tubi fitted no ?
Also most owners upon selling will remove the capristo or similar and dig the old std box out of the shed (where it will have rusted)and put the capristo on ebay so the condition of the box may not be an indication of the cars condition.

[LukeyLikey]

Sold a 360 F1 Spider in grigio/Bordeaux with every factory extra as a p/ex to an independent, about six months ago. I got about £43k and he put it up for £52k and most likely got £50k. The car was in extremely good condition and had significant sums spent by me in the 18 months I had it.

He obviously had advertising and other costs, plus overheads and wages.

I reckon the market is still about there. If you want peace of mind for a great car pay £50k. If you're able to work out what bills are around the corner and can judge a good car in private hands, pay mid 40's.

If it's less, it's probably worth less.

[ditomaso]

On average these cars are 10 years old, and probably have had 5-8 owners. To get the best car, you really need to work closely with a respected Dealer who would have serviced the car for a few years and ultimately will sell you the car with a warranty.

Also don't worry about higher mileages, these cars should go on for thousands of miles, and imo, with higher mileage cars, you at least know the mileage is genuine. I'd expect a 2001-2003 360 to be north of 35K miles with a good service history.

[AdvocatusD]

fesuvious said:

A decade old car, and this you are worried about?

jeez, you need to lighten up. If you want a perfect car, all shiny all the way through, buy brand new. If you can't afford brand new, accept that it won't look brand new, all the way through.

Who the hell thinks they can buy a non restored 10 year old car and expect it to be perfect?

LOL. You've clearly missed the point but your indignation and advice that I should "lighten up" should make up for it. The point I tried to make was that it was described as "perfect" with no work required - it was not. However, if you think that's "perfect" and if it's alright to be described as such given the condition, it speak volumes about you.

For the record, I wasn't expecting the car to be brand new. That was the part of the conversation after it was described as being in excellent condition in the ad and during the conversation. He said it needed nothing more than once and I drove all the way there on that basis.

Thanks again to the majority of posters who weren't aggressive with their contributions, but I think I'm done with this thread. Anything I wanted to say with respect to who was guiding me, what I was looking for and what I found has been said. I have nothing more to add.

Edited by AdvocatusD on Saturday 19th May 19:12

[MrC986]

I think the OP has a valid point - there is a massive difference in the standard of 'prep' that cars get given before sale by those who are selling them & that is part of the challenge of buying a 'pre-owned' car.

A friend of mine bought a 360 in early 2011 which initially looked an unloved car, but once it had been cleaned properly (including the std fit exhaust box so you could see yourself in the reflection)it looked like a very low mileage car should. My friend was initially put off buying the car by the very grubby condition of the interior/engine bay, though the seller wasnt a 'specialist' dealer of the marque but once he had thoroughly checked out the S/H & reinspected the car/haggled on the price he bought it though it was in February after a bad winter of 2010/11 (he then owned it for over a year & when he sold it 4 weeks ago with better weather etc, he got all his outlay incl service costs back but he spent a lot of time polishing/cleaning it to make it one of the best/cleanest in the market).

By chance another friend is now looking for a 360 & just learning the same as the OP...there are a lot of cars that are supposedly 'mint', but clearly aren't & there seems to be very little differentiation in asking price & it all comes down to negotiation & how long the dealer has had the car/what they paid for it initially.

Colour also seems to be a massive issue...the majority want a red one or second choice black/yellow & the rest of the colours seem to offer better VFM, but when you come to sell they will most likely take a little longer to sell.

My friend also wanted a 100% std car though if he had bought one with a sports exhaust, he would have wanted the original system as well. The leather cased toolkits & the indoor car covers/service covers seem to also 'walk' as well from used cars at times.

What I can say is that from my friends experience, a lot of the non-specialist dealers dont know what they are selling & hence an extensive list of photos will help spot a car that is poorly described i.e. has not had all the spec included incl. sports seats etc.

Good luck to the OP

Edited by MrC986 on Saturday 19th May 21:35

[Schnellmann]

fesuvious said:

no, I dont think that is perfect, that is my point.

I wouldn't be daft enough to believe anyone selling a 10year old car if they said it was 'perfect'.

Edited by fesuvious on Saturday 19th May 20:03

I dont really agree. My 993 is 18 years old and its condition was just as described by the dealer ie pretty much perfect.

If you look at AndrewD's 288 thread I think you will find his new car is perfect too...and that is a bit more than 10 years old.

I think the OP's original point is valid. It is annoying that some sellers embellish the truth about their cars and waste the buyer's time. Unfortunately, most of the time the only way of making sure is going to visit the car yourself as some cars described as perfect, really are.

[POORCARDEALER]

Schnellmann said:

fesuvious said:

no, I dont think that is perfect, that is my point.

I wouldn't be daft enough to believe anyone selling a 10year old car if they said it was 'perfect'.

Edited by fesuvious on Saturday 19th May 20:03

I dont really agree. My 993 is 18 years old and its condition was just as described by the dealer ie pretty much perfect.

If you look at AndrewD's 288 thread I think you will find his new car is perfect too...and that is a bit more than 10 years old.

I think the OP's original point is valid. It is annoying that some sellers embellish the truth about their cars and waste the buyer's time. Unfortunately, most of the time the only way of making sure is going to visit the car yourself as some cars described as perfect, really are.

Yes there are near perfect cars around, but they demand a price premium, which the OP reading between the lines doesnt want to pay.

[Schnellmann]

POORCARDEALER said:

Yes there are near perfect cars around, but they demand a price premium, which the OP reading between the lines doesnt want to pay.

I thought he was complaining about sellers telling porkies. In my search for a perfect 993 I saw a couple of very expensive cars described as "perfect" as I was prepared to pay a premium (on the basis that I am planning to keep the car for many years) but both cars were no better than ordinary. In fact, one was supposed to have done just 40'000 km but must have done over 140'000 by the state of the seats. Seller also "forgot" to tell me on the phone that the clutch needed replacing.

The 993 I bought was much better and actually much cheaper (although still higher than the average market price).

And I didn't really pay much of a premium for my CS ( with just 800 km). Sometimes need patience and/or luck.

[AdvocatusD]

Schnellmann said:

I thought he was complaining about sellers telling porkies.

Thank you Schnellman. You're absolutely right. That's the exact premise of my post and thanks for taking the trouble to read it properly. I just fail to understand how "reading between the lines" meant I was not prepared to pay what a good needs. Like you, I was more than happy to pay a reasonable premium for a good car, but was unable to find one on this occassion. All my previous searches ended with my finding the right car for less than the budget I had set, but not this time.

That's a gorgeous CS by the way. Hope you're early gremlins are now sorted? Think of me if you ever let her go?

[POORCARDEALER]

Read the first two lines of your original post.

[Schnellmann]

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

I can't speak to the OP's experience but I came across some "perfect" cars at insanely high prices. The best cars are worth a premium but there is a limit e.g. I saw a very nice CS at a main dealer with 15'000 km but he wanted CHF 199'000 for it (basically 50% more than I paid). Are you suggesting that that car wasn't overpriced or that I was being unrealistic in not wanting to pay it? You seem fairly quick to judge the OP without knowing the full facts of his search ( I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt).

[AdvocatusD]

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

And? It says "seriously overpriced". Where's the issue? I'm not sure what your credentials are but I was being guided by someone experienced and in the trade, but clearly not as expert as you.

Wait there, I said I wouldn't get drawn into this. So as tempting as this is I'll rest happy, knowing exactly what I said and indeed what most people here seem to have gleaned.

Schnellmann said:

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

I can't speak to the OP's experience but I came across some "perfect" cars at insanely high prices. The best cars are worth a premium but there is a limit e.g. I saw a very nice CS at a main dealer with 15'000 km but he wanted CHF 199'000 for it (basically 50% more than I paid). Are you suggesting that that car wasn't overpriced or that I was being unrealistic in not wanting to pay it? You seem fairly quick to judge the OP without knowing the full facts of his search ( I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt).

Cheers Schnellmann! That's the exact experience I have had. Changed to looking at another marque, faced the same issues, but with more fairly priced cars around and available it didn't take as long to find one.

Edited by AdvocatusD on Sunday 20th May 13:55

[Schnellmann]

AdvocatusD said:

That's a gorgeous CS by the way. Hope you're early gremlins are now sorted? Think of me if you ever let her go?

Thanks. CS running fine at the moment, although hasn't seen much use in the past few weeks as injured myself riding.

I'd love to sell on the CS to an enthusiast but importing to the UK from CH will incur 20% VAT so not financially viable.

Your Flaminia is a thing of beauty by the way.

[Schnellmann]

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

As an aside, just checked your profile. That is a lovely Élan. Saw one in that exact colour scheme at a classic car show in Zurich last week. I was being very enthusiastic about it to my daughter. Unfortunately I think I have fathered an automotive philistine as I couldn't really get her interested (had to bribe her with a visit to her favorite restaurant to get her to come with me to the car show in the first place!)

[POORCARDEALER]

AdvocatusD said:

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

And? It says "seriously overpriced". Where's the issue? I'm not sure what your credentials are but I was being guided by someone experienced and in the trade, but clearly not as expert as you.


I ran a Ferrari dealership for many years before setting up on my own.


Good luck in your search.

[POORCARDEALER]

Schnellmann said:

POORCARDEALER said:

Read the first two lines of your original post.

As an aside, just checked your profile. That is a lovely Élan. Saw one in that exact colour scheme at a classic car show in Zurich last week. I was being very enthusiastic about it to my daughter. Unfortunately I think I have fathered an automotive philistine as I couldn't really get her interested (had to bribe her with a visit to her favorite restaurant to get her to come with me to the car show in the first place!)

Thankyou...Lovely little cars, everyone should own one at some point.

[AdvocatusD]

Apologies for the thread resurrection, but I did promise a number of you that I would post up pictures of what I went for instead of the 360 once I acually had it.



Very happy with it thus far!