599 GTO

[Lambo FirstBlood]

pistolp said:

Its not that simple mate, the next one is always just better. The scud is a better car than the CS, yet I prefer the CS. I don't doubt that the F12 GTO or whatever it ends up being called will be technically better but that won't tell the whole story. Will I actually prefer it? Only time will tell.
If Ferraris are always getting better and better why are the oldest ones the most coveted? It's not just investment value either. The more advanced and technological the cars become, the more some of that magic is lost if you ask me.
I love the 458 but it's not a patch on the F40.

Are we sure there will be a hardcore version of the F12? There historically hans't been on a lot of the v12 models. 550 had the Barchetta which whilst rare and had no roof isn't any different mechanically to the standard car. Same with Superamerica. 599 GTO seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly and why it's so interesting. The normal pattern for front ending v12's is standard car, then some sort of handling pack then a limited edition run out roofless version. Unlike the V8s that always have a hardcore version towards end of the product life cycle.

[JamieBeeston]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

pistolp said:

Its not that simple mate, the next one is always just better. The scud is a better car than the CS, yet I prefer the CS. I don't doubt that the F12 GTO or whatever it ends up being called will be technically better but that won't tell the whole story. Will I actually prefer it? Only time will tell.
If Ferraris are always getting better and better why are the oldest ones the most coveted? It's not just investment value either. The more advanced and technological the cars become, the more some of that magic is lost if you ask me.
I love the 458 but it's not a patch on the F40.

Are we sure there will be a hardcore version of the F12? There historically hans't been on a lot of the v12 models. 550 had the Barchetta which whilst rare and had no roof isn't any different mechanically to the standard car. Same with Superamerica. 599 GTO seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly and why it's so interesting. The normal pattern for front ending v12's is standard car, then some sort of handling pack then a limited edition run out roofless version. Unlike the V8s that always have a hardcore version towards end of the product life cycle.

You're historically spot on LFB, however I think the fear here is that now Ferrari have realised there is an ever increasing market for these special run variants, they may well churn more out in this world of bottom line £$€ worship (remember, the F40 was a limited edition one off... unti it wasnt)

[pistolp]

Well I hope they don't make one!

[JamieBeeston]

pistolp said:

Well I hope they don't make one!

Ditto!

[Schnellmann]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

Are we sure there will be a hardcore version of the F12? There historically hans't been on a lot of the v12 models. 550 had the Barchetta which whilst rare and had no roof isn't any different mechanically to the standard car. Same with Superamerica. 599 GTO seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly and why it's so interesting. The normal pattern for front ending v12's is standard car, then some sort of handling pack then a limited edition run out roofless version. Unlike the V8s that always have a hardcore version towards end of the product life cycle.

Didn't the whole hard-core thing start with the CS? At least I don't remember a hard core 355. And was the CS always planned or a response to the GT3? Perhaps it was too late to create a hard-core 550/575, which is why the 599 was the first 12 cylinder to get the treatment. There is obviously a market out there so I would be very surprised if the F12 didn't get the GTO treatment (even if it doesn't get a GTO name).

[caine100]

Schnellmann said:

Lambo FirstBlood said:

Are we sure there will be a hardcore version of the F12? There historically hans't been on a lot of the v12 models. 550 had the Barchetta which whilst rare and had no roof isn't any different mechanically to the standard car. Same with Superamerica. 599 GTO seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly and why it's so interesting. The normal pattern for front ending v12's is standard car, then some sort of handling pack then a limited edition run out roofless version. Unlike the V8s that always have a hardcore version towards end of the product life cycle.

Didn't the whole hard-core thing start with the CS? At least I don't remember a hard core 355. And was the CS always planned or a response to the GT3? Perhaps it was too late to create a hard-core 550/575, which is why the 599 was the first 12 cylinder to get the treatment. There is obviously a market out there so I would be very surprised if the F12 didn't get the GTO treatment (even if it doesn't get a GTO name).

It's unlikely there will be a hardcore version of the F12, but who knows. The car seems pretty serious as it is. The F12 will almost certainly be the last ever atmospheric V12 Ferrari, though. That should be reason enough to make a hardcore version as one last hurrah.

[RevHappy]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

Are we sure there will be a hardcore version of the F12? There historically hans't been on a lot of the v12 models. 550 had the Barchetta which whilst rare and had no roof isn't any different mechanically to the standard car. Same with Superamerica. 599 GTO seems to me to be a bit of an anomaly and why it's so interesting. The normal pattern for front ending v12's is standard car, then some sort of handling pack then a limited edition run out roofless version. Unlike the V8s that always have a hardcore version towards end of the product life cycle.

The 599 also had the SA to go with the barchetta and superamerica line of open top V12's
GTO will be seen by some as the V12 line cashing in on the success of the CS and Scud on the V8's
The sports V8 and the flagship V12 seem to be getting all three types, coupe, spider and hardcore versions and will probably continue to do so.

[jtremlett]

Schnellmann said:

...Didn't the whole hard-core thing start with the CS?...

The 348 GTC was the first in that line but there wasn't an equivalent with the F355 which had the (US only) Fiorano series as its run out version.

As for what is/was planned, sometimes I'm not sure even Ferrari know what is planned. Either way, any F12 special edition is likely to be a few years away yet.

Jonathan

[Dblue]

jtremlett said:

he 348 GTC was the first in that line but there wasn't an equivalent with the F355 which had the (US only) Fiorano series as its run out version.

As for what is/was planned, sometimes I'm not sure even Ferrari know what is planned. Either way, any F12 special edition is likely to be a few years away yet.

Jonathan

Jonathan,
The 355 Challenge cars that are road registered are obviously not the same thing but did Ferrari ever make a bona fide road version of that car?

[subirg]

Dblue said:

Jonathan,
The 355 Challenge cars that are road registered are obviously not the same thing but did Ferrari ever make a bona fide road version of that car?

I'm not Jonathan, but I am a former 355 owner and will quite happily tell you that there was no 'road legal' 355 challenge car produced by the factory. However the story is a little grey... As far as I am aware, the 355 Challenge was actually a standard 355 Berlinetta with a (substantial) dealer fitted Challenge conversion kit. This turned the car into the 355 Challenge which you are familiar with and is also the reason why it is possible to make the 355 Challenge cars road legal. From the 360 onwards, the Challenge cars were engineered to be Challenge cars from day 1 (i.e. at the Factory) and hence did not have certain equipment fitted that would be required in a road legal car (e.g. handbrake).

[jtremlett]

subirg said:

I'm not Jonathan, but I am a former 355 owner and will quite happily tell you that there was no 'road legal' 355 challenge car produced by the factory. However the story is a little grey... As far as I am aware, the 355 Challenge was actually a standard 355 Berlinetta with a (substantial) dealer fitted Challenge conversion kit. This turned the car into the 355 Challenge which you are familiar with and is also the reason why it is possible to make the 355 Challenge cars road legal. From the 360 onwards, the Challenge cars were engineered to be Challenge cars from day 1 (i.e. at the Factory) and hence did not have certain equipment fitted that would be required in a road legal car (e.g. handbrake).

I am Jonathan and can confirm that's correct. As I understand it the customer ordered a 355 Challenge which, as you rightly say, was a standard road F355 Berlinetta with a conversion kit which the dealer (always MHT for UK cars) fitted prior to delivery. As far as I am aware all F355 Challenge cars are UK road legal and most are road registered.

Jonathan

[Dblue]

subirg said:

Dblue said:

Jonathan,
The 355 Challenge cars that are road registered are obviously not the same thing but did Ferrari ever make a bona fide road version of that car?

I'm not Jonathan, but I am a former 355 owner and will quite happily tell you that there was no 'road legal' 355 challenge car produced by the factory. However the story is a little grey... As far as I am aware, the 355 Challenge was actually a standard 355 Berlinetta with a (substantial) dealer fitted Challenge conversion kit. This turned the car into the 355 Challenge which you are familiar with and is also the reason why it is possible to make the 355 Challenge cars road legal. From the 360 onwards, the Challenge cars were engineered to be Challenge cars from day 1 (i.e. at the Factory) and hence did not have certain equipment fitted that would be required in a road legal car (e.g. handbrake).

Thanks for that. There's several such cars around at the moment and whilst all clearly "track" biased vehicles they are usually road registered too with varying degrees of civilising being done. Some are fully trimmed in leather with carpets etc , more often they remain pretty much stripped out.

[AndrewD]

caine100 said:

Camlet said:

About all it's worth I'm afraid. First, the marketing ploy criticism is a red herring. Mankind has been built on marketing ploys. From Gauis Juluis Caesar's trip to Gaul or JFK's Man on the Moon speech before a Joint Session of Congress. Second, the 599 GTB was the car it was meant to be. An awesome machine that combined civility and elegance with blistering speed when required. Brilliant and what the F12 carries on. The 599 GTO is an incredible experience. Very different from the GTB and what the F12 is designed to be. I don't care what people think. I don't care about badges or ploys. I care about the huge freaking grin on my face when I drive my 599 GTO. Like around the M25 yesterday.

Edited by Camlet on Sunday 1st July 07:52

Well, I'm glad you enjoy it and I didn't say that it was a bad car, just that it won't be as good as the next one. The 458 Italia was a massive step up from the 430 Scuderia and there's no reason not to expect the same.

See, that's maybe what you're not fully appreciating. I don't think the 458 was a maasive step from the Scud. In fact I drove both and bought a 16M. It was about the massive smile it put on my face.

LFB, did you drive the GTO then?

[caine100]

AndrewD said:

See, that's maybe what you're not fully appreciating. I don't think the 458 was a maasive step from the Scud. In fact I drove both and bought a 16M. It was about the massive smile it put on my face.

LFB, did you drive the GTO then?

I can fully appreciate that one can favor a car even though it may be considered technically "inferior". In fariness, a 16M being a convertible makes it a slightly different driving experience to the two coupes. I've not had the pleasure to drive a 16M but I've heard good things.

It's all just personal opinion at the end of the day.

[Lambo FirstBlood]

AndrewD said:

See, that's maybe what you're not fully appreciating. I don't think the 458 was a maasive step from the Scud. In fact I drove both and bought a 16M. It was about the massive smile it put on my face.

LFB, did you drive the GTO then?

No, it rained all day the day I was scheduled to drive it. Trying to find a window in the weather. Worst July I can remember

[Enricogto]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

AndrewD said:

See, that's maybe what you're not fully appreciating. I don't think the 458 was a maasive step from the Scud. In fact I drove both and bought a 16M. It was about the massive smile it put on my face.

LFB, did you drive the GTO then?

No, it rained all day the day I was scheduled to drive it. Trying to find a window in the weather. Worst July I can remember

Solution?
Book a test drive in Italy and then buy here from the factory!
Currently sunny 35° in Modena!

[H100S]

Thread resurrection. Three years since this topic kicked off with much speculation on the future values. In that time we have seen some unbelievable times in auction houses around the world with prices breaking records.

Browsing and dreaming through the ads i spotted this beauty but the price blew me away. Its spec is stunning and mileage very low but it this what they change hand for these days? £699,990

http://www.dicklovett.co.uk/specialist/used-cars/4...

[Davey S2]

H100S said:

Thread resurrection. Three years since this topic kicked off with much speculation on the future values. In that time we have seen some unbelievable times in auction houses around the world with prices breaking records.

Browsing and dreaming through the ads i spotted this beauty but the price blew me away. Its spec is stunning and mileage very low but it this what they change hand for these days? £699,990

http://www.dicklovett.co.uk/specialist/used-cars/4...

That is stunning!

Looking in one of the main classic car mags yesterday there was a low miles LHD GTOfor around half a mil

That price seems optimistic by around £100k but it's a rare car in rare colour and only needs to find one buyer.

I noticed that the prices for everything in the dealers at present are mental even for the 'normal' stuff. It surely can't last.

[Pork]

Davey S2 said:

That is stunning!

Looking in one of the main classic car mags yesterday there was a low miles LHD GTOfor around half a mil

That price seems optimistic by around £100k but it's a rare car in rare colour and only needs to find one buyer.

I noticed that the prices for everything in the dealers at present are mental even for the 'normal' stuff. It surely can't last.

Same with houses. Crazy prices being asked, and being achieved

[traxx]

599GTO is a good car and I liked mine when I had it but there is no way its a 700k car when an F40 is an 850k car - its just all wrong in relative value

Anyway at that price the car has basically doubled in value over the last 12 months - this is such a bubble market