RM Auction in Battersea, some nice cars available

[Not Ideal]

Ok cool good to know - thanks for clarifying that.

[Streetrod]

RoyaleDetailing said:

BelfastBoy said:

Moral of the story could be - if you want a Koenigsegg, buy second-hand and save yourself a fortune?

and buying from an auction will always be cheaper than buying from a dealer. You dont get a warranty and risk having a large bill waiting. What you are comparing is the auction price (which tends to be the lowest) to the showroom price (which tends to be the highest). Apples and pears.

The more expensive the car, the bigger the variance.

Are you you saying this only applies to modernish cars as record prices are being paid for classics and have been for the last couple of years now.

It also begs the question why the CCX owner decided to sell the car via auction and not via a dealer as the estimate was a lot lower than I would have expected a dealer to market the car at. Also I would not expect a dealer to offer a warrantee on a four year old EGG whatever the price was, only the factory would do that following a full service and you paying for an extended warrantee

[jonby]

camshafted said:

Not just on the Koenigsegg, but also the Veyron. £579,000 appears to be an extraordinary figure for a car with 700km on the clock.

Also, will this Veyron figure affect the residuals of a Veyron Super Sport?

I think we have to remember that the Pagani Zonda is the exception rather than the rule

As others have said, a veyron is just like any other car but with bigger numbers. Not helped by huge servicing & other running costs, including things like new tyres every 2.5k miles (£20k from memory), new wheels every 7.5kmiles (IIRC) at another £20k and equally eye-watering service bills. That means at say £3-400k, it will not compete with aventadors at similar money because running costs will scare some people off. Plus the fact it really hasn't captured the imagination of 'drivers/petrolheads' the way Pagani's models have and in particular the Zonda

But going back to conventional depreciation, the fact is you can still order a new veyron today. Whereas you can't say an enzo, a zonda is difficult, even the forthcoming P1, F70 and 918 would be difficlut to order, all of which will probably be more desirable to petrolheads. Plus whilst I'm generalising, a lot of veyron buyers are quite showy and want the very latest, which this version isnt

Result is, a one week old one will be worth much less than a new one, a one yr old one must be worth at least 30% less than a new one and so on. This one is 4 yrs old - it's actually not that surprising to see what it raised

I go back to my first point - it's Zonda which is the exception in it's depreciation model, not bugatti

There has been a general asssumption amongst some that low volume high priced exotica is somehow a good investment. It might be, but it's by no means guranteed, it tends to be a very long term view that needs to be taken and without hindsight, you can't be sure what will be a good investment with a few very noteable exceptions - I can't for instance imagine how a 997 RS would not be a good buy if bought now and held for 10 years

EDIT: I should point out that my earlier post above about auction practice was made as an 'expert' having been in the business for 20 years. This post about depreciation however is entirely personal conjecture !

Edited by jonby on Thursday 1st November 12:03

Edited by jonby on Thursday 1st November 12:06

[Streetrod]

jonby said:

camshafted said:

Not just on the Koenigsegg, but also the Veyron. £579,000 appears to be an extraordinary figure for a car with 700km on the clock.

Also, will this Veyron figure affect the residuals of a Veyron Super Sport?

I think we have to remember that the Pagani Zonda is the exception rather than the rule

As others have said, a veyron is just like any other car but with bigger numbers. Not helped by huge servicing & other running costs, including things like new tyres every 2.5k miles (£20k from memory), new wheels every 7.5kmiles (IIRC) at another £20k and equally eye-watering service bills. That means at say £3-400k, it will not compete with aventadors at similar money because running costs will scare some people off. Plus the fact it really hasn't captured the imagination of 'drivers/petrolheads' the way Pagani's models have and in particular the Zonda

But going back to conventional depreciation, the fact is you can still order a new veyron today. Whereas you can't say an enzo, a zonda is difficult, even the forthcoming P1, F70 and 918 would be difficlut to order, all of which will probably be more desirable to petrolheads. Plus whilst I'm generalising, a lot of veyron buyers are quite showy and want the very latest, which this version is

Result is, a one week old one will be worth much less than a new one, a one yr old one must be worth at least 30% less than a new one and so on. This one is 4 yrs old - it's actually not that surprising to see what it raised

I go back to my first point - it's Zonda which is the exception in it's depreciation model, not bugatti

There has been a general asssumption amongst some that low volume high priced exotica is somehow a good investment. It might be, but it's by no means guranteed, it tends to be a very long term view that needs to be taken and without hindsight, you can't be sure what will be a good investment with a few very noteable exceptions - I can't for instance imagine how a 997 RS would not be a good buy if bought now and held for 10 years

This man talks a lot of sense

[jonby]

Streetrod said:

Now here is a conundrum for you. The 2008 Koenigsegg CCX with only 1700 miles on the clock sold for just over £251K including fees(Major bargain I think). How now can the dealer Supervettura ever expect to now sell their 2006 CCX with 2850miles for the advertised £582K or their 2004 CCR for £469K?

I know the Supervettura guys post on here sometimes; they must be feeling sick this morning. I am not gloating, I actually feel sorry for their situation, but it appears the market has spoken on Koenigsegg values today

would be amazed if the 'eggs were not at Supervettura on commission

I think the car last night was an absolute bargain but the prices above sound somewhat optomistic, to put it mildly. Auction is often stated as being the true test of market value and to an extent, that's true of last night. So few 'eggs have been made or are traded that people will look to the sale to help get a true feel of value of their own and other vehicles

But I suspect this is one of that rare class of vehicle that actually needs to be sold by a dealer in pretty much any instance other than a 'must sell quickly scenario' as it will be a long sell, that needs a lot of extra specialised info and there is simply not the forum or wider knowledge base on 'eggs that there is for most other cars. So true market value is IMHO somehwere between the price last night and the SV asking prices

[Streetrod]

jonby said:

Streetrod said:

Now here is a conundrum for you. The 2008 Koenigsegg CCX with only 1700 miles on the clock sold for just over £251K including fees(Major bargain I think). How now can the dealer Supervettura ever expect to now sell their 2006 CCX with 2850miles for the advertised £582K or their 2004 CCR for £469K?

I know the Supervettura guys post on here sometimes; they must be feeling sick this morning. I am not gloating, I actually feel sorry for their situation, but it appears the market has spoken on Koenigsegg values today

would be amazed if the 'eggs were not at Supervettura on commission

I think the car last night was an absolute bargain but the prices above sound somewhat optomistic, to put it mildly. Auction is often stated as being the true test of market value and to an extent, that's true of last night. So few 'eggs have been made or are traded that people will look to the sale to help get a true feel of value of their own and other vehicles

But I suspect this is one of that rare class of vehicle that actually needs to be sold by a dealer in pretty much any instance other than a 'must sell quickly scenario' as it will be a long sell, that needs a lot of extra specialised info and there is simply not the forum or wider knowledge base on 'eggs that there is for most other cars. So true market value is IMHO somehwere between the price last night and the SV asking prices

Your on a roll mate, another very sensible reply I will pay a lot more attention to your sage words in the future

[jonby]

Streetrod said:

Your on a roll mate, another very sensible reply I will pay a lot more attention to your sage words in the future

Very kind, I'll pay you later ! :-)

My job is all about discussing & defining 'value' which is such an interesting concept with so many different definitions - my comments were from that angle, rather than as an expert in these particular cars. Can't promise my views on anything else will meet with such approval !

[TurboTerrific9]

I believe the Egg was sold by a high profile dealer, which i guess doesn't really speak very highly for his opinion of resale values.

However, the best outcome would be that the car found a private buyer and someone who will keep it. Then it can be passed as an irrelevant outcome (except possibly for the guy who bought it from new).
What you don't really want to see is it now priced at 400k sitting on a forecourt.

PS the clarity on auction house etiquette was extremely informative, nice one.

Edited by TurboTerrific9 on Thursday 1st November 12:50

[Rollcage]

Interesting post Jonby, thanks.

[Streetrod]

TurboTerrific9 said:

However, the best outcome would be that the car found a private buyer and someone who will keep it. Then it can be passed as an irrelevant outcome (except possibly for the guy who bought it from new).
What you don't really want to see is it now priced at 400k sitting on a forecourt.

PS the clarity on auction house etiquette was extremely informative, nice one.

Edited by TurboTerrific9 on Thursday 1st November 12:50

Agreed, hopefully it was a private buyer as they could potentially run it for a couple of years and not lose any money come resale, not including running costs obviously.

As for a dealer buying it surely they wouldn’t have the cheek to try and pull a fast one like that, not on such a high profile car?? Or am I being naive.....

[ncs]

Streetrod said:

Wow! £112500 for a Citroen bathtub

Blimey did it really go for that?

We stayed to watch the bidding on the Merc then headed home, really enjoyable night & some lovely cars on display.

[dtmpower]

Are these auctions and evening out - even if you have no intention of bidding ?

[ncs]

dtmpower said:

Are these auctions and evening out - even if you have no intention of bidding ?

Bit of both, I was with a group of friends who own cars the like of which were for sale & were happy to add to their collections if the opportunity arose. Didnt happen last night but has in the past.

[AyBee]

dtmpower said:

Are these auctions and evening out - even if you have no intention of bidding ?

I asked earlier in this thread - seems to be a yes, but you have to pay for entry...

[jonny5]

TurboTerrific9 said:

I believe the Egg was sold by a high profile dealer, which i guess doesn't really speak very highly for his opinion of resale values.

Tom Hartley

[jonby]

Streetrod said:

TurboTerrific9 said:

However, the best outcome would be that the car found a private buyer and someone who will keep it. Then it can be passed as an irrelevant outcome (except possibly for the guy who bought it from new).
What you don't really want to see is it now priced at 400k sitting on a forecourt.

PS the clarity on auction house etiquette was extremely informative, nice one.

Edited by TurboTerrific9 on Thursday 1st November 12:50

Agreed, hopefully it was a private buyer as they could potentially run it for a couple of years and not lose any money come resale, not including running costs obviously.

As for a dealer buying it surely they wouldn’t have the cheek to try and pull a fast one like that, not on such a high profile car?? Or am I being naive.....

Interesting question but not sure it's a fast one ? I buy a little art in my 'private life' - 3 yrs ago I saw something in an American gallery that I recognised from a Christies London sale results bulletin a few mths earlier - I checked the prices online and the dealer was attempting to make a 200% mark up on what he paid. I told them and they replied they'd bought it cheap which was their good fortune but they were asking a fair price. I offered them about 75% more than they paid on the basis that it was a nice quick turnaround for them and they accepted. I was gutted to have missed the auction but the fact is, the price I paid was more than fair and everyone was happy

Fast forward 3 years to last month and I sold said piece in a different auction (not my own, I'm an industrial auctioneer). I made 60% profit after auctioneer's commission, the hammer price was almost 3 times what it was 3 years ago and the latest buyer, including commission, paid 120% more than I paid the gallery.

[ilovevolvo]

dtmpower said:

Are these auctions and evening out - even if you have no intention of bidding ?

I was hoping to go along to this but was much to busy at work but there is a Bonhams one in Dec at merc world if you fancy it

[Davey S2]

jonny5 said:

TurboTerrific9 said:

I believe the Egg was sold by a high profile dealer, which i guess doesn't really speak very highly for his opinion of resale values.

Tom Hartley

I believe he previously publicly rubbished 'Eggs in an article in the Times. Basically said that they were all badly built development cars and called the new price of them 'a joke'. He recommended buyers avoid them due to reliability and depreciation issues.

[dtmpower]

ilovevolvo said:

I was hoping to go along to this but was much to busy at work but there is a Bonhams one in Dec at merc world if you fancy it

Is it an open venue ?

[Elderly]

jonby said:

It is acceptable to bid on behalf of the vendor up to the point of the reserve...........

.................. it is also not OK to make consecutive bids on behalf of the vendor, say for instance up to one bid below reserve, in the hope that someone might jump in at the last minute

Quite right but it's not unknown for an unethical auctioneer to place a bid on behalf of the vendor and then take a bid off the wall and then back to the vendor until the item is bought in at a respectable level close to the reserve, or sold at reserve (sometimes with discretion) to the person who likes to wait until all competing bids have been made before raising his hand.

The auctioneers' practise that I *really* dislike is when the reserve is set higher than the low estimate, it doesn't appear to happen often but it does happen.