Ferrari 458 Italia oversupply?
Discussion
hornbaek said:
The market for cars over 200k is tiny in the UK. And with Aston, McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Bentley all having moved upwards in their pricing they are all competing for the same customer hence the carnage when it comes to sell a 2nd hand car.
if they've all moved upmarket, then surely there must be more buyers who can't afford new and so are in the used market ?Sierra Mike said:
APOLO1 said:
Intresting Times, My 12C-SP 500 Miles, 30k Behind list and not a phone call
I'm sorry to hear this. When a customer has supported the manufacturer by forking out £200k+, the least that manufacturer can do is take responsibility and bear the brunt of some of the excessive depreciation because, quite simply, the product is overpriced. McLaren has accepted its cars are overpriced in the Australian market and slashed prices by 20% price. Since the dealer is trying to sell the car on your behalf and will hopefully try to get the best price, McLaren should split the cost of depreciation with you. I don't think that's unreasonable and it will give the market more confidence in these cars. If the guys at McLaren are serious about the P13 being a contender in the 911 Turbo market, they'd better think again and pull their collective fingers out. Based on McLaren's performance so far, I don't see it working. I had a deposit for an early 12C but withdrew after suffering excessive depreciation with an SLS; I haven't bought another Mercedes or from that dealer since. Unless McLaren takes action to support its customers, I won't consider buying a new McLaren either.
Streetrod said:
Sierra Mike said:
APOLO1 said:
Intresting Times, My 12C-SP 500 Miles, 30k Behind list and not a phone call
I'm sorry to hear this. When a customer has supported the manufacturer by forking out £200k+, the least that manufacturer can do is take responsibility and bear the brunt of some of the excessive depreciation because, quite simply, the product is overpriced. McLaren has accepted its cars are overpriced in the Australian market and slashed prices by 20% price. Since the dealer is trying to sell the car on your behalf and will hopefully try to get the best price, McLaren should split the cost of depreciation with you. I don't think that's unreasonable and it will give the market more confidence in these cars. If the guys at McLaren are serious about the P13 being a contender in the 911 Turbo market, they'd better think again and pull their collective fingers out. Based on McLaren's performance so far, I don't see it working. I had a deposit for an early 12C but withdrew after suffering excessive depreciation with an SLS; I haven't bought another Mercedes or from that dealer since. Unless McLaren takes action to support its customers, I won't consider buying a new McLaren either.
"Revised positioning sees the 12C now available for $398,000 before on-road costs (previously $493,100), while the 12C Spider cops an even bigger discount, with a new starting price of $441,780 (was $543,900).
"In comparison, arch rival Ferrari charges $526,950 for the 458 coupe, and $590,000 for the 458 Spider – roughly $130,000 and $150,000 more than the discounted British contender.
"In a forceful attack, the company went on to call the Australian super luxury sportscar segment “historically overpriced”, and said a number of the core manufacturers employed premium-pricing policies – in other words, they were gouging local buyers.
"Furthermore, the company says it will give existing buyers who paid the old price a special “trade-in allowance”. However, this will only be available towards a new model within McLaren’s range, meaning buyers who look beyond the company next time won’t receive the benefit. "
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/...
At the new price in Australia of $398k, the 12C is now actually marginally cheaper that the Audi R8 V10 Plus at $408k. To put this into perspective, the pricing in the UK for these cars is £176k and £125k respectively which means that, relatively speaking, McLaren is pitching the 12C at a price below that of the Audi i.e. circa £120k - £125k albeit I haven't made an allowance for potential differences in basic specification.
To come back to the topic of the thread, I believe that many 458s have been on the market for a long time because most owners are unwilling to lower the prices to the level at which they will sell. I think these cars will start to shift once they're sub £130k because that is what the car is worth. McLaren has already recognised and accepted this in the Australian market but it should do the same in its home market.
I was having this discussion with a friend of mine today. He placed a £20k deposit for a 458 years ago and he's been chased by the dealer for months now to spec the car so that it becomes a firm order. He's not going to buy a 458 but will leave the deposit indefinitely with the dealer till something comes along which he finds appealing. In summary, the problem with the 458 is not oversupply, it's overpricing and this is borne out by McLaren's actions in the Australian market.
Edited by Sierra Mike on Sunday 19th May 21:53
andrew said:
if they've all moved upmarket, then surely there must be more buyers who can't afford new and so are in the used market ?
When the availability of finance went through the floor. the numbers of new supercar buyers also shrank dramatically. So, the manufactures went upmarket in pricing to sell less cars to people who could still afford them. The 458 is much more expensive than a 430 ever was.There's not a tier of people who can afford cars at say £180k, there are those who can afford £200k+ and then those who are at c£120-150k. It's free fall from one tier to the other as far as I can see.
I've been watching the McLaren ads as tempted by a 12 coupe (I still have my original deposit down!), and saw the yellow spider. Great looking car, but I assumed that 230k was close to list or even above. Ad doesn't mention it's 30k off. I also think if your spending 230k on a car without much of a waiting list (I assume), then you'll generally want to spec your own
In the last week, a black 12 coupe listed @149,500 at Dick Lovett, a black 11 @ 144,500 Tom Hartley, and a blue @ 141,500 from Carr's, all with good specs (interior carbon, wheels,etc) have all sold after being listed less than 2 weeks.
In the last week, a black 12 coupe listed @149,500 at Dick Lovett, a black 11 @ 144,500 Tom Hartley, and a blue @ 141,500 from Carr's, all with good specs (interior carbon, wheels,etc) have all sold after being listed less than 2 weeks.
This thread about 458s has been well and truly hijacked by a yellow 12c. This is my first post, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news with it.
Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
Scud16M said:
This thread about 458s has been well and truly hijacked by a yellow 12c. This is my first post, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news with it.
Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
To continue the thread hijack Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
... I would happily sell you my bianco fuji 16M for £175k 
there are some valid points raised by everyone here though.
Perhaps the general public are coming to terms with the fact cars are a perishable /depreciating assets. the UK has been oversupplied in supercars for the last 12 -15 years... this is why so many 996 porsches were made etc... why... cheap credit... Look at mercedes for example... you can go in as a business user and take c63 coupe home on £499 a month lease (a thread on here was suggesting). Merc are almost giving them away. It doesnt bode well for the 3-4 year old 2nd hand market.
personally i have no issues buying an expensive 2nd hand supercar but there are plenty here that want to own and spec the car from new...
Perhaps the general public are coming to terms with the fact cars are a perishable /depreciating assets. the UK has been oversupplied in supercars for the last 12 -15 years... this is why so many 996 porsches were made etc... why... cheap credit... Look at mercedes for example... you can go in as a business user and take c63 coupe home on £499 a month lease (a thread on here was suggesting). Merc are almost giving them away. It doesnt bode well for the 3-4 year old 2nd hand market.
personally i have no issues buying an expensive 2nd hand supercar but there are plenty here that want to own and spec the car from new...
Scud16M said:
This thread about 458s has been well and truly hijacked by a yellow 12c. This is my first post, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news with it.
Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
+1Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
There are a few Spyders for £210k from main dealers - i would be surprised if you couldn't buy one closer to 200k. If it was me, i would remove the MSO bumber and sell it separately to an existing 12C owner...
Scud16M said:
This thread about 458s has been well and truly hijacked by a yellow 12c. This is my first post, and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news with it.
Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
how does sor tie-up the dealer's capital ?Firstly you have a car in a "love it or hate it" colour. Secondly you need to write the cost of the MSO bumper off the "list" price, as it would have limited value to someone who didn't spec it themselves. Then you need to ask at what level you think you would get calls on the car. I suspect you would get a few more calls at £215k, and that the car would sell quickly at £205k. It sounds like the car is SOR (correct me if that is not the case), and the worst news is that a dealer will want a £15-20k margin across a car like this, as it ties up a lot of capital. There is a very good reason that the specialist dealers don't want to get involved in these cars. The risk is too great.
Conclusion: the trade bid for your car is probably £195k, and if you want to sell it before the summer is over you should price it at £205-210k. It will be worth less in October.
I would rather have £175k in a 16M.
Scud16M said:
andrew said:
how does sor tie-up the dealer's capital ?
I meant that if he chose to get a bid rather than SOR the news would not be good. I checked with a specialist dealer after making the comment and he said he would not bid £195k for the car.AndrewD said:
To continue the thread hijack ... I would happily sell you my bianco fuji 16M for £175k
I've already got one ... I would happily sell you my bianco fuji 16M for £175k , but I know someone who is looking for a low mileage 16M right now. If you can contact me direct (I have to confess I don't know how to do that) I could put you in touch.I apologise if I upset anyone, that wasn't the intention.
I think the real issue is that until McLaren came on the scene Ferrari totally dominated this market, and had in place a fantastic dealer price support system for maintaining second hand values, by simply "owning" the space. Now we have McLaren too, and there are therefore a lot more cars about in this price and category, and (mostly) it is the same pool of buyers.
In addition, McLaren doesn't yet have the support infrastructure that Ferrari has, where you can walk into a Ferrari dealer and have a "menu" of used cars from £60-250k.
Bottom line, I think that McLaren coming into the space will/is going to hurt residuals for both brands (back on topic!).
I think the real issue is that until McLaren came on the scene Ferrari totally dominated this market, and had in place a fantastic dealer price support system for maintaining second hand values, by simply "owning" the space. Now we have McLaren too, and there are therefore a lot more cars about in this price and category, and (mostly) it is the same pool of buyers.
In addition, McLaren doesn't yet have the support infrastructure that Ferrari has, where you can walk into a Ferrari dealer and have a "menu" of used cars from £60-250k.
Bottom line, I think that McLaren coming into the space will/is going to hurt residuals for both brands (back on topic!).
Scud16M said:
Bottom line, I think that McLaren coming into the space will/is going to hurt residuals for both brands (back on topic!).
I expect that'll be true, because each brand will be facing buyers who have the option to buy the other marque instead. That competition should be a positive thing, and bring some more 'real' values out. It'll reduce the marque and dealers' ability to determine used prices and swing some more weight onto the preferences of the market.Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff