Investment: 360 Challenge Stradale V 430 Scuderia V 993RS

Investment: 360 Challenge Stradale V 430 Scuderia V 993RS

Author
Discussion

rs200evo

131 posts

246 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
993 RS but in terms of the Scud vs CS, the only reason I think the Scud will outperform the CS in the long term is that the only thing I was not able to live with in a CS was the F1 box in its incarnation in that car. It was just too slow and spoiled what is a superb package. Now if the CS had the box from the Scud, it would be perfection. Full chat changes on a Scud are sublime and personify the car. As these cars start to age, and become revered, I think the Scud may well be seen as the ultimate incarnation of the single clutch lightweights....

Ingenere

130 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
My CS has seen ~30-40% increase in value since I bought it in '10.

Given

1. How special the driving experience is (best car since my F40),
2. The cult following that it has
3. The looks
4. Limited production

I think that demand will always outstrip supply for good cars, which is what drives values.


hazy

1,173 posts

267 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
rs200evo said:
993 RS but in terms of the Scud vs CS, the only reason I think the Scud will outperform the CS in the long term is that the only thing I was not able to live with in a CS was the F1 box in its incarnation in that car. It was just too slow and spoiled what is a superb package. Now if the CS had the box from the Scud, it would be perfection. Full chat changes on a Scud are sublime and personify the car. As these cars start to age, and become revered, I think the Scud may well be seen as the ultimate incarnation of the single clutch lightweights....
now thats bizarre because I think the gearbox is one of the best features of the Strad, the bark on the downchange is just glorious when you get it "just so", rewarding your driving efforts. The Scud is a faster smoother change, granted, but isnt so tactile IMO. Analogue Supercar vs Digital Supercar again I guess.....

rs200evo

131 posts

246 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
now thats bizarre because I think the gearbox is one of the best features of the Strad, the bark on the downchange is just glorious when you get it "just so", rewarding your driving efforts. The Scud is a faster smoother change, granted, but isnt so tactile IMO. Analogue Supercar vs Digital Supercar again I guess.....
It's no doubt a personal things, and we are splitting hairs as both cars are awesome, but it was just something that used to niggle away at me, upchanges that had a soft feel to them. The CS also left me wanting when pulling away smartly from junctions some times, clutch was just a little slow to engage....

Maybe I had a bad one smile

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
the bark on the downchange is just glorious when you get it "just so", rewarding your driving efforts. The Scud is a faster smoother change, granted, but isnt so tactile IMO. Analogue Supercar vs Digital Supercar again I guess.....
It's a strange place we've arrived at ... where a flappy paddle gearbox gets called rewarding and its accompanying computer controlled down blip described as 'glorious'. Sorry, I mean no disrespect but I honestly had to read your post several times in bewilderment, wondering that perhaps you have retrofitted a manual box to your CS. Have you ever heel and toe'd in a true manual car with a good drivetrain ? Its about a million times more rewarding and satisfying than what you're describing here.

A CS is no less digital than a Scud as well surely ? Electronic throttle, Semi auto transmission, ASR, Traction Control. Not even close to analgoue by my definition. Ok so the E diff adds another layer of wizadry but its all part of the same piece of cloth. If you want analogue try a 993rs/964rs !

Edited by jackal on Thursday 29th August 18:58

Radders

288 posts

226 months

Thursday 29th August 2013
quotequote all
rs200evo said:
It's no doubt a personal things, and we are splitting hairs as both cars are awesome, but it was just something that used to niggle away at me, upchanges that had a soft feel to them. The CS also left me wanting when pulling away smartly from junctions some times, clutch was just a little slow to engage....

Maybe I had a bad one smile
Yes the one you drove is set up wrong, the gear change is harsh but not needlessly hard like the scud. Quite a few Strads out there with the wrong clutch setup.

hazy

1,173 posts

267 months

Friday 30th August 2013
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jackal said:
It's a strange place we've arrived at ... where a flappy paddle gearbox gets called rewarding and its accompanying computer controlled down blip described as 'glorious'. Sorry, I mean no disrespect but I honestly had to read your post several times in bewilderment, wondering that perhaps you have retrofitted a manual box to your CS. Have you ever heel and toe'd in a true manual car with a good drivetrain ? Its about a million times more rewarding and satisfying than what you're describing here.

A CS is no less digital than a Scud as well surely ? Electronic throttle, Semi auto transmission, ASR, Traction Control. Not even close to analgoue by my definition. Ok so the E diff adds another layer of wizadry but its all part of the same piece of cloth. If you want analogue try a 993rs/964rs !

Edited by jackal on Thursday 29th August 18:58
Im quite adept at heel and toeing thanks, thanks to extensive racing experience which means I have experienced just about every type of gearbox, manual, manual dogleg, manual close ratio, sequential, sequential flat shift, sequential air shifter, and quite simply the Strad is the best with my M3 GTR a close second.

Please enlighten me to your experiences (a 1.1 Fiesta Pop doesnt cut it)

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Friday 30th August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
jackal said:
It's a strange place we've arrived at ... where a flappy paddle gearbox gets called rewarding and its accompanying computer controlled down blip described as 'glorious'. Sorry, I mean no disrespect but I honestly had to read your post several times in bewilderment, wondering that perhaps you have retrofitted a manual box to your CS. Have you ever heel and toe'd in a true manual car with a good drivetrain ? Its about a million times more rewarding and satisfying than what you're describing here.

A CS is no less digital than a Scud as well surely ? Electronic throttle, Semi auto transmission, ASR, Traction Control. Not even close to analgoue by my definition. Ok so the E diff adds another layer of wizadry but its all part of the same piece of cloth. If you want analogue try a 993rs/964rs !

Edited by jackal on Thursday 29th August 18:58
Im quite adept at heel and toeing thanks, thanks to extensive racing experience which means I have experienced just about every type of gearbox, manual, manual dogleg, manual close ratio, sequential, sequential flat shift, sequential air shifter, and quite simply the Strad is the best with my M3 GTR a close second.

Please enlighten me to your experiences (a 1.1 Fiesta Pop doesnt cut it)
I'm no hero racing driver, just an ordinary guy who likes tactile cars and generally calls it how I see it.

As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.

If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.





Edited by jackal on Friday 30th August 20:02

hazy

1,173 posts

267 months

Friday 30th August 2013
quotequote all
jackal said:
I'm no hero racing driver, just an ordinary guy who likes tactile cars and generally calls it how I see it.

As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.

If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.





Edited by jackal on Friday 30th August 20:02
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Friday 30th August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.
How bloody condescending. Of course racing cars have paddle shifts as they are solely about pure speed. Absolute speed is one thing, the mechanical joy of driving is often rather different. I, like Jackal do not find a paddle shift as interesting as a good manual.

I often wonder if racing drivers are actually car guys at all or just speed junkies/ highly competitive with racing their sport of choice.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Friday 30th August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
jackal said:
I'm no hero racing driver, just an ordinary guy who likes tactile cars and generally calls it how I see it.

As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.

If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.





Edited by jackal on Friday 30th August 20:02
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.
laugh


roygarth

Original Poster:

2,673 posts

247 months

Friday 30th August 2013
quotequote all
jackal said:
hazy said:
jackal said:
I'm no hero racing driver, just an ordinary guy who likes tactile cars and generally calls it how I see it.

As far as modern road cars go and regular manual boxes, the ones that spring to mind as being highly enjoyable have been the caterham 6 speed, 993 RS shift, Honda S2000, mazda MX5, Exige S2, Ferrari 355/360/430, peugeot 205 GTi, TRV griffith and the CTR as well. Semi Autos ? I simply dislike most of them in varying degrees.

If you honestly prefer the CS box to everything you've ever tried then all power to you. I have to say though that for someone who has done so much racing and who you would imagine celebrates that most magical of unions between man and machine, it's certainly curious and out of the ordinary that you would prefer a transmission that totally removes the driver from the process of driving and further diassociates him from the car. That said, if forced to pick a semi auto I'd take the Nissan GTr , at least it does the job properly rather than the 'work in progress' effort in the CS.





Edited by jackal on Friday 30th August 20:02
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.
laugh
Well said!

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
F1 and the majority of GT race cars run paddles, but you wouldnt know that only having driven a long sequence of fairly underwhelming cars. Go drive some proper stuff AT SPEED sonny then come back and talk.
That isn't a fair comment and smacks of elitism and arrogance. Which isn't something I usually detect from you.

hazy

1,173 posts

267 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
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rubystone said:
That isn't a fair comment and smacks of elitism and arrogance. Which isn't something I usually detect from you.
cheers, I appreciate that, I dont normally jump on my high horse but given enough baiting even I will get rude eventually when dealing with numb-nuts who clearly havent got a clue what they are talking about wink

Tis the Pistonheads way I guess, internet keyboard warrior plebs baiting real world people?

jimmyslr

798 posts

272 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
I barely dare enter the discussion again!

I think there is a bit of everyone being right here and, yes, I do speak with some experience smile. I have a caterham and have raced it extensively. I've raced my 993rs, a 996 gt3 cup (before they went sequential), a Honda powered Elise. Now sold/exited those. I'm racing a Clio cup with paddles/sadev box right now and I've raced a Juno with full on pneumatic paddle shift. Also drove a m3csl with early paddles plenty. Phew...

Anyway, IMHO you're all right. Executing a nice shift in a sweet manual car at speed is lovely. Very satisfying to get it all right as you're hurtling into paddock hill bend. However, I'm no driving god and easy to get it a bit wrong, mistime blip, compromise the braking. That's annoying, makes me want to do better and slows me down. Flappy paddles take some of that issue out of the equation so you can focus more on the braking, the turn in, the last ounce of mechanical grip. I think I've got limited brain bandwidth so I get similar enjoyment/rush from either set up, but the spread of where I get the joy from varies by car.

We are on the Fezza forum so, with the best will in the world, this interesting question will get an answer in one direction. I am very interested in how good the CS is. I deliberately bought a manual 612 a few months ago as I do like the manual clicky clacky gate and I'm not so excited about early paddle shifts. Having said that, everyone seems to love a CS and I assume they're not all mad. These days I expect it's a tricky car to get a serious test drive in a CS but I must look into it. I'm liking my first ferrari experience, but the 612 is very grown up and, surprise surprise, the idea of using the four seats for family travel is not happening often.

Anyone fancy answering my question about the lhd CS in the classifieds? Is that a normal price and does car look ok or is it obviously odd in some way? I don't know my way round the CS yet to spot obvious quirks.

Finally.... They're all great cars!

hazy

1,173 posts

267 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
Good reply Jimmy.

As regards the CS, Im happy for you to try mine if your ever near Staffordshire, but be warned you WILL buy one afterwards, no question.

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
hazy said:
Good reply Jimmy.

As regards the CS, Im happy for you to try mine if your ever near Staffordshire, but be warned you WILL buy one afterwards, no question.
Can we all have a go please? driving

(I've raced a Radical, a Juno, and a Clio Cup too as it happens)

pistolp

1,719 posts

221 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
To my mind the CS would be the greatest car ever built if it was a manual. However, because of its slightly disappointing automated manual it is only ONE of the best cars ever built. Other than that its perfect. I'm sure for some the gearbox doesn't detract at all, but to me its a bit of a let down.
Racing drivers care about lap time first and foremost. Car guys like process of going fast and for a road car, I'd swap some outright performance for more driver involvement. In other words 'doing it yourself'.

Kinky

39,344 posts

268 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
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Peeps,

Polite notice to please ease off on the handbags - it's really not necessary.

LukeyLikey

855 posts

146 months

Saturday 31st August 2013
quotequote all
I think there is a 'right' and 'wrong' here - ie it's not just about personal preference it must surely be about the character of the car too? The CS with a manual gearbox would be a bit of an anachronism I think.

The F1 shift in the CS is of its time and was leading edge road car technology when released. It adds to the unpolished and exciting feel of driving a CS despite the fact that modern gearboxes are statistically and technically superior.

Older cars like the F40 won't become invalid with time for the same reasons. For Ferrari to build a high performance lightweight car where they are not using as close to modern tech as they can is not right for the brand. It would somehow lack integrity.

Heel and toe-img is a great and rewarding thing to master but a manual box is not right for all cars. I still have a Cosworth Impreza which is one of the best heel/toe changes around but the CS is just as involving but in a different way.

I love the F1 change cars because they help me concentrate on the things I really love about driving.