Investment: 360 Challenge Stradale V 430 Scuderia V 993RS
Discussion
marky1 said:
AmoCS said:
Seem to remember a launch blue car selling for under 100k sometime around 2010?this is UK launch scud , went back to Ferrari uk and was totally refurbed with side panels/engine bay/filler cap etc done in cf
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=1906...
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=1906...
tony h said:
this is UK launch scud , went back to Ferrari uk and was totally refurbed with side panels/engine bay/filler cap etc done in cf
http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=1906...
Was it this one Tony -http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=1906...
http://www.clubstradale.com/post1010.html#p1010
tony h said:
AmoCS said:
furlonger car m8 In May14 it was for sale -
Ferrari 430 Scuderia
£119,990
2008
26680m
The prices being paid for some of these Porsche's is just ridiculous. I mean, not slagging the car or anything, after all, it's not Luke Shaw's fault he just cost a retarded amount of money for Man Utd.
But some of the prices being asked are simply outrageous. Hearing of 4.0 RS going for £300k? Anything prior to 996 with a CS/RS/GT badge just seem to be plucking numbers from the air.
But some of the prices being asked are simply outrageous. Hearing of 4.0 RS going for £300k? Anything prior to 996 with a CS/RS/GT badge just seem to be plucking numbers from the air.
sone said:
Given the bull s
t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..
The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
Absolutely this. t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull s
t that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums. Edited by Camlet on Saturday 2nd August 08:12
Camlet said:
sone said:
Given the bull st written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..
The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
Absolutely this. t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull s
t that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums. Edited by Camlet on Saturday 2nd August 08:12
Everyone involved has a vested interest in bulls
tting (including me!) The only thing we know for sure are the auction results. These are often much lower than the rumoured sale prices.roygarth said:
Camlet said:
sone said:
Given the bull st written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..
The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
Absolutely this. t written on these forums I'd wager the asking and paid prices for these cars are very different..The dealers are playing some people like a fiddle!
It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull s
t that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums. Edited by Camlet on Saturday 2nd August 08:12
Everyone involved has a vested interest in bulls
tting (including me!) The only thing we know for sure are the auction results. These are often much lower than the rumoured sale prices.I have a 12C. It will be a looong time before it is worth as much as I paid for it and I bought it pretty well. However, I knew it's general direction would not be positive and I still bought it - I liked it. I also bought a Stradale. I knew it's general direction would be the other way, though I would not have thought it would go as far and as fast as it has done. There may be periods where it drops, in line with a correction in the market, but there will also be periods where it goes up significantly. Over 20 years plus it will go up after adjusting for inflation, I'm pretty sure. How much and when, hard to say.
The reason is because it is from a brand that is highly desirable and will probably stay that way, it is a low production number vehicle and these days there are very few of those and it is a great car and one with a following.
No car will work if you only want it solely as an investment because it is not as easily tradable as shares, and the periods where the value is depressed are less predictable making it harder to plan an exit. However, if you want to own and/or drive a particular car then I believe it can be possible to work out with some confidence whether it will go well financially. For instance, LaFerrari would be a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Within the next 5 years it may go below its retail price (still probably doubt that) but over 20 years I just don't see it not being a similar experience to 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo at some point.
At a more affordable level there are examples too. I suspect a Speciale, as the last and best of the n/a V8 Ferrari line should do well, assuming its replacement is a turbo car. I think that long term an Alfa 8C could be good news (beautiful car, very old and famous historic brand, very low production) though I don't personally love it so couldn't buy one. I also suspect Testarossas will go well - Ferrari is really a 12 cylinder brand and the TR is last of the flat 12s. It is an iconic car and defined an era. The BMW Z8, when it was launched (I owned an M Roadster which was a big purchase for me at the time) I agonised over trying to get the money together for a Z8 - I was very sure it would have a strong long term value. I should have done it. It should continue too - it has something that the Speciale and Stradale don't; it is its own design.
I hate to say it but the RS 4.0 at the launch price was so obviously a licence to print money - famous racing brand, huge following, last, best and rarest of the manual, metzger, hydraulic steering GT cars. Even a 3.8 RS has a really good future IMV, despite current price levels. The ingredients are there in a way they may not be for the 991. I also think Carrera GT is one to think about.
I take the general point, which is that cars are better used than invested in, but I do think there is a pattern to the market, not fully logical as perhaps shares might be, but to a degree predictable. Paying no tax on cars that appreciate also makes a nice little bonus.
To answer the Nick Mason point, the reason you don't buy two is that true enthusiasts often extend themselves to buy the most expensive and desirable car they can and if there is money left over, they buy something else that is pointedly different. Buying two never crosses the mind, even though you do indeed know with some cars the experience is going to be better than with others.
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
LukeyLikey said:
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
A word of caution, particularly relevant if one is looking to sell on consignment. Many dealers, including a few prominent, went spectacularly bust when the market corrected in 91/92.LukeyLikey said:
I'm not sure I fully agree with this. There are some things that you can call - the general direction of movement of vehicles is often a strong probability. You can't exactly call when, or exactly how much.
I have a 12C. It will be a looong time before it is worth as much as I paid for it and I bought it pretty well. However, I knew it's general direction would not be positive and I still bought it - I liked it. I also bought a Stradale. I knew it's general direction would be the other way, though I would not have thought it would go as far and as fast as it has done. There may be periods where it drops, in line with a correction in the market, but there will also be periods where it goes up significantly. Over 20 years plus it will go up after adjusting for inflation, I'm pretty sure. How much and when, hard to say.
The reason is because it is from a brand that is highly desirable and will probably stay that way, it is a low production number vehicle and these days there are very few of those and it is a great car and one with a following.
No car will work if you only want it solely as an investment because it is not as easily tradable as shares, and the periods where the value is depressed are less predictable making it harder to plan an exit. However, if you want to own and/or drive a particular car then I believe it can be possible to work out with some confidence whether it will go well financially. For instance, LaFerrari would be a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Within the next 5 years it may go below its retail price (still probably doubt that) but over 20 years I just don't see it not being a similar experience to 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo at some point.
At a more affordable level there are examples too. I suspect a Speciale, as the last and best of the n/a V8 Ferrari line should do well, assuming its replacement is a turbo car. I think that long term an Alfa 8C could be good news (beautiful car, very old and famous historic brand, very low production) though I don't personally love it so couldn't buy one. I also suspect Testarossas will go well - Ferrari is really a 12 cylinder brand and the TR is last of the flat 12s. It is an iconic car and defined an era. The BMW Z8, when it was launched (I owned an M Roadster which was a big purchase for me at the time) I agonised over trying to get the money together for a Z8 - I was very sure it would have a strong long term value. I should have done it. It should continue too - it has something that the Speciale and Stradale don't; it is its own design.
I hate to say it but the RS 4.0 at the launch price was so obviously a licence to print money - famous racing brand, huge following, last, best and rarest of the manual, metzger, hydraulic steering GT cars. Even a 3.8 RS has a really good future IMV, despite current price levels. The ingredients are there in a way they may not be for the 991. I also think Carrera GT is one to think about.
I take the general point, which is that cars are better used than invested in, but I do think there is a pattern to the market, not fully logical as perhaps shares might be, but to a degree predictable. Paying no tax on cars that appreciate also makes a nice little bonus.
To answer the Nick Mason point, the reason you don't buy two is that true enthusiasts often extend themselves to buy the most expensive and desirable car they can and if there is money left over, they buy something else that is pointedly different. Buying two never crosses the mind, even though you do indeed know with some cars the experience is going to be better than with others.
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
On a general 'direction of market movement' point. In the current 'classic/rare sports' market everything is going up and has been doing so for several years. The call is how fast will a particular marque/model go up relative to the market. Like a bull run in the stock market. When the market turns (I have no idea when this will be) it will all turn. You won't see RS' carrying on up and 360CS going down.I have a 12C. It will be a looong time before it is worth as much as I paid for it and I bought it pretty well. However, I knew it's general direction would not be positive and I still bought it - I liked it. I also bought a Stradale. I knew it's general direction would be the other way, though I would not have thought it would go as far and as fast as it has done. There may be periods where it drops, in line with a correction in the market, but there will also be periods where it goes up significantly. Over 20 years plus it will go up after adjusting for inflation, I'm pretty sure. How much and when, hard to say.
The reason is because it is from a brand that is highly desirable and will probably stay that way, it is a low production number vehicle and these days there are very few of those and it is a great car and one with a following.
No car will work if you only want it solely as an investment because it is not as easily tradable as shares, and the periods where the value is depressed are less predictable making it harder to plan an exit. However, if you want to own and/or drive a particular car then I believe it can be possible to work out with some confidence whether it will go well financially. For instance, LaFerrari would be a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Within the next 5 years it may go below its retail price (still probably doubt that) but over 20 years I just don't see it not being a similar experience to 288 GTO, F40, F50, and Enzo at some point.
At a more affordable level there are examples too. I suspect a Speciale, as the last and best of the n/a V8 Ferrari line should do well, assuming its replacement is a turbo car. I think that long term an Alfa 8C could be good news (beautiful car, very old and famous historic brand, very low production) though I don't personally love it so couldn't buy one. I also suspect Testarossas will go well - Ferrari is really a 12 cylinder brand and the TR is last of the flat 12s. It is an iconic car and defined an era. The BMW Z8, when it was launched (I owned an M Roadster which was a big purchase for me at the time) I agonised over trying to get the money together for a Z8 - I was very sure it would have a strong long term value. I should have done it. It should continue too - it has something that the Speciale and Stradale don't; it is its own design.
I hate to say it but the RS 4.0 at the launch price was so obviously a licence to print money - famous racing brand, huge following, last, best and rarest of the manual, metzger, hydraulic steering GT cars. Even a 3.8 RS has a really good future IMV, despite current price levels. The ingredients are there in a way they may not be for the 991. I also think Carrera GT is one to think about.
I take the general point, which is that cars are better used than invested in, but I do think there is a pattern to the market, not fully logical as perhaps shares might be, but to a degree predictable. Paying no tax on cars that appreciate also makes a nice little bonus.
To answer the Nick Mason point, the reason you don't buy two is that true enthusiasts often extend themselves to buy the most expensive and desirable car they can and if there is money left over, they buy something else that is pointedly different. Buying two never crosses the mind, even though you do indeed know with some cars the experience is going to be better than with others.
As for the dealers, well, they will always be dealers (though the good ones usually deserve their reputations). They are like lawyers or accountants - doesn't matter about the state of the economy because people always argue and even losses need counting. House always wins.
Camlet said:
Absolutely this.
It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull st that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums.
there's definitely truth in this but having personally tried to acquire a 4.0 with waiting cash, some of the hype is completely real!It's been said a hundred times you buy a car because you love to drive it. If you're lucky enough to have a bounce from buying a car that appreciates, marvellous. But it's luck. Nick Mason was complimented on how clever he was buying a 250 GTO. Mason hilariously brushed the compliment aside "if I was clever I'd have bought two".
The marketplace is extremely non transparent and layered with so much bull s
t that it can only be loosely termed a market. A Casino more like. And anyone thinking of reading the market is wasting their time, and will be played like a fiddle as sone rightly says. But it makes for fun forums. Edited by Camlet on Saturday 2nd August 08:12
Bunk said:
The prices being paid for some of these Porsche's is just ridiculous. I mean, not slagging the car or anything, after all, it's not Luke Shaw's fault he just cost a retarded amount of money for Man Utd.
But some of the prices being asked are simply outrageous. Hearing of 4.0 RS going for £300k? Anything prior to 996 with a CS/RS/GT badge just seem to be plucking numbers from the air.
The prices being asked for some of those Porsches are certainly no less ridiculous than those being asked for some of the older Ferraris though.But some of the prices being asked are simply outrageous. Hearing of 4.0 RS going for £300k? Anything prior to 996 with a CS/RS/GT badge just seem to be plucking numbers from the air.
4.0 RS' are at 350k for RHD whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it. With some of the prices being paid for other kit I'm surprised its contentious. Most owners wouldn't sell for that.
993 RS' are up at 200-250, again trouble is people think the market is still going up so you've got to prize it away from the owner. I want another 993 RS but am wondering whether I'll wait and see what prices do.
It's not a case of owners talking up values, otherwise why would I talk up the value of a car I am looking to buy!? Also I'm amazed people query values in today's market, its genuinely bonkers out there and people are paying mad money for stuff. If you've got something its a good time to sell, might not be the top but it won't be near the bottom either...
993 RS' are up at 200-250, again trouble is people think the market is still going up so you've got to prize it away from the owner. I want another 993 RS but am wondering whether I'll wait and see what prices do.
It's not a case of owners talking up values, otherwise why would I talk up the value of a car I am looking to buy!? Also I'm amazed people query values in today's market, its genuinely bonkers out there and people are paying mad money for stuff. If you've got something its a good time to sell, might not be the top but it won't be near the bottom either...
kbooker said:
There's no correct answer here, all 3 will do well in a bull market but it could all go tits up again, no-one actually knows....If I was in the OP's position I'd stick with what he's got
I'm the OP. 7 months ago I swapped the 993RS for a LHD 360CS putting the spare £40k on the deal in my pocket. Since then the CS has gone up £45k and the RS about £70K.I'd had the RS for 10 years and intend to keep the CS for a similar period. It will be interesting to see where the 2 cars values go.....
Value seems to be in Scuderia for me at the moment but keep it quiet until I have sourced one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYDY-1RAFrk ENJOY !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYDY-1RAFrk ENJOY !
Edited by GRBF430F1 on Tuesday 5th August 18:38
Had a proper long test drive in a Scuderia yesterday and now appreciate how different these cars are up and above my old regular F430 spider.
Epic car and well worth the premium if you are seriously into your driving. The superfast 2 F1 gearbox is amazing to the extent I think its better ( more suitable to scud) than the latest DSG boxes which are too smooth and give little sensation of changing gear. The sound at 6,000 + RPM is pure F1
The car has a great balance between the rawness of a CS and the daily driveability of a 458. Reckon the car is a Concorde moment, the pinnacle of motoring navarna
Now can I live with a grey one or do I hold out praying for a Rosso Scuderia one to come up in the next couple of months
Epic car and well worth the premium if you are seriously into your driving. The superfast 2 F1 gearbox is amazing to the extent I think its better ( more suitable to scud) than the latest DSG boxes which are too smooth and give little sensation of changing gear. The sound at 6,000 + RPM is pure F1
The car has a great balance between the rawness of a CS and the daily driveability of a 458. Reckon the car is a Concorde moment, the pinnacle of motoring navarna
Now can I live with a grey one or do I hold out praying for a Rosso Scuderia one to come up in the next couple of months
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