Koenigsegg - any feedback?

Koenigsegg - any feedback?

Author
Discussion

TWareham

116 posts

206 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
Streetrod said:
Tommy, not disagreeing with you but your analysis does not paint the full picture. A number of the Pagani Zonda specials are actually updated F's and earlier cars and some of the others were actually built after Zonda production "Officially" ended and were to special request. Pagani have also built a lot more cars than Koenigsegg have in a similar time scale.

In your opinion does the 1:One as the current halo car drive sales of the Agera?
I believe what I was trying to demonstrate more so than the one off's is the consistency of the models as you explained in your post that the Koenigsegg model range was made up of very short runs of special edition's and needed something like the Zonda F produced in a volume of 25 cars (inclusive of Clubsport). Koenigsegg have the Agera 27 (inclusive of R&S models) produced to date or the CCX 48 produced each over a sensible time period showing consistency. Also to point out that there have only been 3 limited edition runs in the period of Koenigsegg history compared to that of the 6 Pagani have made.

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, although we stand as official Koenigsegg dealers we retail both brands and at the end of the day we do what we do because we love cars and there is no possible way a car enthusiast could not love either a Pagani or a Koenigsegg. I believe that whether buyer or enthusiast you need to be filled with the correct information of what each of the brands are like.

Regards the One:1 it is as you say the halo car and something that is for certain driving sales.



andymc

7,334 posts

206 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
Streetrod said:
Tommy, not disagreeing with you but your analysis does not paint the full picture. A number of the Pagani Zonda specials are actually updated F's and earlier cars and some of the others were actually built after Zonda production "Officially" ended and were to special request. Pagani have also built a lot more cars than Koenigsegg have in a similar time scale.

In your opinion does the 1:One as the current halo car drive sales of the Agera?
I believe what I was trying to demonstrate more so than the one off's is the consistency of the models as you explained in your post that the Koenigsegg model range was made up of very short runs of special edition's and needed something like the Zonda F produced in a volume of 25 cars (inclusive of Clubsport). Koenigsegg have the Agera 27 (inclusive of R&S models) produced to date or the CCX 48 produced each over a sensible time period showing consistency. Also to point out that there have only been 3 limited edition runs in the period of Koenigsegg history compared to that of the 6 Pagani have made.

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, although we stand as official Koenigsegg dealers we retail both brands and at the end of the day we do what we do because we love cars and there is no possible way a car enthusiast could not love either a Pagani or a Koenigsegg. I believe that whether buyer or enthusiast you need to be filled with the correct information of what each of the brands are like.

Regards the One:1 it is as you say the halo car and something that is for certain driving sales.
Tommy, what's the easier model to sell Pagani/Koen) with regards to stock?

Streetrod

6,468 posts

205 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
Streetrod said:
Tommy, not disagreeing with you but your analysis does not paint the full picture. A number of the Pagani Zonda specials are actually updated F's and earlier cars and some of the others were actually built after Zonda production "Officially" ended and were to special request. Pagani have also built a lot more cars than Koenigsegg have in a similar time scale.

In your opinion does the 1:One as the current halo car drive sales of the Agera?
I believe what I was trying to demonstrate more so than the one off's is the consistency of the models as you explained in your post that the Koenigsegg model range was made up of very short runs of special edition's and needed something like the Zonda F produced in a volume of 25 cars (inclusive of Clubsport). Koenigsegg have the Agera 27 (inclusive of R&S models) produced to date or the CCX 48 produced each over a sensible time period showing consistency. Also to point out that there have only been 3 limited edition runs in the period of Koenigsegg history compared to that of the 6 Pagani have made.

I am not trying to say one is better than the other, although we stand as official Koenigsegg dealers we retail both brands and at the end of the day we do what we do because we love cars and there is no possible way a car enthusiast could not love either a Pagani or a Koenigsegg. I believe that whether buyer or enthusiast you need to be filled with the correct information of what each of the brands are like.

Regards the One:1 it is as you say the halo car and something that is for certain driving sales.
I agree information is key so point taken

By the way I don’t know of any Pagani F that is not a club sport, please correct me if you know different. The various personal specials are nothing more than customised F's with parts pulled from the Cinque parts bin and a paint job so they have bought nothing new to the party, the exception being the 760's

The thing that confused me as an enthusiast were the various CCX, there was the CCX, CCX Edition, CCXR, CCXR Edition and CCXR Special Edition, I suspect very few people new the differences.

I agree both brands are now top notch but also very different, personally it won’t be a surprise to anyone that I prefer Pagani but I have the upmost respect for what Koenigsegg have achieved.

What I would really like to see is them breaking back into the USA and getting their marketing correct, glad to hear you are helping drive this Tommy. The One:1 should be being compared to the latest batch of Hybrid super cars if only on performance alone but it is rarely mentioned in such circles. Maybe that’s because all six are sold.

And on that note Tommy would it have not been in Koenigseggs interest to build more than six, let’s say 20 - 30 (or does that market not exist)? It would still be the most exclusive of the bunch and would more likely get wider exposure in the media etc which can only be good for them





Edited by Streetrod on Thursday 23 October 21:56

S1M VP

949 posts

233 months

Thursday 23rd October 2014
quotequote all
andymc said:
Tommy, what's the easier model to sell Pagani/Koen) with regards to stock?
This is a bit of an unfair question to ask a dealer who sells both, especially on here.

Very interesting thread though and it's good to see a dealer taking the time to provide some information about the cars.

I for one have always loved the looks, doors and the removable roof of a Koenigsegg ... (Although I haven't seen one in the flesh, yet!)


DUMBO100

1,878 posts

183 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
What a nice chap Tommy is, I think he should be offered the new "Guest Editor" position that I have just invented for PH with no authorisation whatsoever

omgus

7,305 posts

174 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
I love a Koenigsegg, they are top on my lotto list.
Although passing SuperV each day helps as the White and Black one is stunning.

And those doors.

Streetrod

6,468 posts

205 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
TurboTerrific9 said:
Streetrod said:
By the way I don’t know of any Pagani F that is not a club sport, please correct me if you know different. The various personal specials are nothing more than customised F's with parts pulled from the Cinque parts bin and a paint job so they have bought nothing new to the party, the exception being the 760's





Edited by Streetrod on Thursday 23 October 21:56
My F was not born a Clubsport and despite having numerous Cinque upgrades it never became one. My understanding was that the original owner found that the CS version was too harsh for road use. I understand also that the majority of F buyers went for the standard and not the CS version
We may have to agree to disagree on this one TT9, excluding yours, according to my notes and reasearch most were CS's. When I get some time I will go back and check again

TWareham

116 posts

206 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
S1M VP said:
andymc said:
Tommy, what's the easier model to sell Pagani/Koen) with regards to stock?
This is a bit of an unfair question to ask a dealer who sells both, especially on here.

Very interesting thread though and it's good to see a dealer taking the time to provide some information about the cars.

I for one have always loved the looks, doors and the removable roof of a Koenigsegg ... (Although I haven't seen one in the flesh, yet!)
That is fine - anyone who knows us, knows we are quite the open book. Had you asked me pre-2012 what was the easier to sell or given £XXXk what would I have purchased for stock (remembering I have been a Koenigsegg dealer for a long time) I would not have hesitated to say Zonda.

Ask me today - without hesitation, a Koenigsegg.

Something has changed not just here in the UK but in Europe too, Koenigsegg is outselling new Pagani by an incredible margin.



Streetrod

6,468 posts

205 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
That is fine - anyone who knows us, knows we are quite the open book. Had you asked me pre-2012 what was the easier to sell or given £XXXk what would I have purchased for stock (remembering I have been a Koenigsegg dealer for a long time) I would not have hesitated to say Zonda.

Ask me today - without hesitation, a Koenigsegg.

Something has changed not just here in the UK but in Europe too, Koenigsegg is outselling new Pagani by an incredible margin.
Now this is a major surprise if true. If my information is correct the 60th Huayra is due to be delivered before the end of the year with the order book stretching way into the future. How many Agera's have been sold or are in build and if the numbers are as you say where are they???confused

TWareham

116 posts

206 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
Streetrod said:
TWareham said:
That is fine - anyone who knows us, knows we are quite the open book. Had you asked me pre-2012 what was the easier to sell or given £XXXk what would I have purchased for stock (remembering I have been a Koenigsegg dealer for a long time) I would not have hesitated to say Zonda.

Ask me today - without hesitation, a Koenigsegg.

Something has changed not just here in the UK but in Europe too, Koenigsegg is outselling new Pagani by an incredible margin.
Now this is a major surprise if true. If my information is correct the 60th Huayra is due to be delivered before the end of the year with the order book stretching way into the future. How many Agera's have been sold or are in build and if the numbers are as you say where are they???confused
I said Europe - Pagani are doing very well in the US, etc...


andymc

7,334 posts

206 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
Streetrod said:
TWareham said:
That is fine - anyone who knows us, knows we are quite the open book. Had you asked me pre-2012 what was the easier to sell or given £XXXk what would I have purchased for stock (remembering I have been a Koenigsegg dealer for a long time) I would not have hesitated to say Zonda.

Ask me today - without hesitation, a Koenigsegg.

Something has changed not just here in the UK but in Europe too, Koenigsegg is outselling new Pagani by an incredible margin.
Now this is a major surprise if true. If my information is correct the 60th Huayra is due to be delivered before the end of the year with the order book stretching way into the future. How many Agera's have been sold or are in build and if the numbers are as you say where are they???confused
I said Europe - Pagani are doing very well in the US, etc...
Thanks for being open and honest, good luck with the sales of all marques

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Friday 24th October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
… Koenigsegg …

That is 4 model variants on average 1 new model every 4 years. The last run being 27 cars the run before 48!
It is also only 3 Limited Edition Runs, EDITION, Trevita and One:1
… Pagani …
That is 7 models and 6 Limited Edition Runs in a similar period of time.
In addition to these cars there have been these special one-offs?

I think when it comes to model confusion and limited edition runs - Pagani have that market tied up nicely.
I know we are splitting hairs but that can be fun.

If we apply the models that Koenigsegg and Pagani note on their respective websites, the list would look more like this:

KOENIGSEGG
CC8S 6 made
CCR 15 made - inc. CCRevo
CCX 28 made
CCX Edition 2 made - limited
CCX Trevita 2 made - limited
CCX-R 9 made - inc. Special One, E100 Platinus
CCX-R Edition 4 made - limited
CCX-R Special Edition 2 made - limited
Agera 6 made
Agera S 5 made so far - inc. Hundra, HH
Agera R 17 made so far - inc. BLT, Zijn
One:1 6 to be made - limited

Track - CCGT

Summary:
4 production models: CC8s, CCR, CCX, Agera
4 limited models: CCX Edition; CCX Trevita; CCX-R Edition; CCX-R Special Edition; One:1
7 specials: CCRevo; Special One; E100 Platinus; Hundra; HH; BLT; Zijn

PAGANI
Zonda C12 6 made – inc. AB
Zonda S7.0 15 made
Zonda S7.3 17 made – inc. GJ,
Zonda S Roadster 12 made
Zonda F 27 made – inc. Fantasma, Absolute, 764 Passione
Zonda F Roadster 23 made
Zonda Cinque 5 made - limited
Zonda Cinque Roadster 5 made - limited
Zonda Tricolore 3 made - limited
Huayra 50+ made so far – inc. Le Monza Lisa

Other SpecialsPS, HH, 750, LH, Uno, 760, 760 X, 760 Roadster
TrackMonza, GR(both almost certainly S chassis), Revolucion

Summary:
5 production models: C12, S7.0, S7.3, F, Huayra
3 limited models: Cinque, Cinque Roadster, Tricolore
13 Specials: AB, GJ, Fantasma, Absolute, 764 Passione, PS, HH, 750, LH, Uno, 760, 760 X, 760 Roadster

As far as I know, the RAK was never built. I have removed the R as it is not made on the same VIN series

Additionally, Koenigsegg production is around the 108 mark, which Pagani must be around 175 (126 Zondas alone).

I am not trying to prove any point but just to add food for thought.

Edited by cc8s on Saturday 25th October 10:29

Streetrod

6,468 posts

205 months

Saturday 25th October 2014
quotequote all
CC8S you beat me too it, I was compiling a similar list, thanks for saving me the effortthumbup It backs up my thoughts on the number or cars sold. The Huryra is on chassis 58 by the way and will be 60 by Xmas; sorry that's my inner geek coming out. This is why I was questioning Tommy's sales numbers; I have never broken them down globally. It does indicate that that the singular Huryra model has so far outsold outsold the 4 Agera variants 58 to 35.

But as you said I am not trying to point score here, I just want to present the facts


Edited by Streetrod on Saturday 25th October 12:21

zondaboy

106 posts

137 months

Saturday 25th October 2014
quotequote all
Have to say I am a Koenigsegg advocate. They really have a special place in my heart. I know the only RHD CCX-R Edition very well. 2 previous owners of that car are friends of mine. The car was once parked just off Sloane Street in front of a Veyron. All eyes were on the CCX-R. I also know the SuperVettura white/black CCX quite well (cheers Tommy). Both are amazing cars.

However much I love Pagani cars I would probably buy a Koenigsegg instead of a Pagani if I was in the market for such a car. Main reasons being the proper supercar looks, aerodynamic shape, clean lines (some think Paganis look too fussy), noise/acceleration, practicality (doors, roof, driving view, simple interior/dashboard set-up), fantastic value and not forgetting the record-breaking performance figures (don't forget the CCR was once the fastest production car in the world). They certainly do the numbers. Basically Koenigseggs are everything a supercar/hypercar should be. A pure driving machine.

The SV CCX would be my ideal hypercar. Here’s why I love it even more now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAd8kyQkfnU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rDT-TN-1hk

Owner of the turquoise CCX-R Edition “Special One” driving the car in Knightsbridge and telling passenger how good his car is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTXHaoHtAqc

Same car in Paris. Nice sound and acceleration at the start of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShcDFjv2-jY

Not my video but I was walking by when this happened. Unforgettable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgjBCo_6ccU

Reasons and reminders of why some of us first got into Koenigseggs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPeveGmeYLk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svxRpqeqFRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ubFiGJ3BE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4i5IxfAE-4 (from about 30mins onwards)

I love the way that Koenigseggs are viewed as an underdog but then go and blast everything else out of the water. Enzo/Zonda beating and Veyron rivalling performance for a lot less money. You do literally get plenty of bang for your buck. What more can you ask for?

Overall I think Koenigseggs are underrated but they are rare, desirable and collectable and always worth considering if you are fortunate enough to be in a position to purchase a high-end, high-performance vehicle.

NRS

22,080 posts

200 months

Saturday 25th October 2014
quotequote all
TWareham said:
Streetrod said:
TWareham said:
That is fine - anyone who knows us, knows we are quite the open book. Had you asked me pre-2012 what was the easier to sell or given £XXXk what would I have purchased for stock (remembering I have been a Koenigsegg dealer for a long time) I would not have hesitated to say Zonda.

Ask me today - without hesitation, a Koenigsegg.

Something has changed not just here in the UK but in Europe too, Koenigsegg is outselling new Pagani by an incredible margin.
Now this is a major surprise if true. If my information is correct the 60th Huayra is due to be delivered before the end of the year with the order book stretching way into the future. How many Agera's have been sold or are in build and if the numbers are as you say where are they???confused
I said Europe - Pagani are doing very well in the US, etc...
Yes, there are very few Huayra's in Europe which would explain the difference there. Also I think there may also be a difference depending if people are mixing sold/ delivered cars.

Streetrod, I don't think there is a huge difference in how confusing the different cars are. You know about a lot of the Zonda special's are using the part bins of the Cinque/ Tricolore/ 760 cars. However most people who have not looked into this would be just as confused by these as the Koenigsegg model names. Quite a few of the 'seggs don't have huge differences despite the names (like the Zondas).

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Saturday 25th October 2014
quotequote all
Streetrod said:
CC8S you beat me too it, I was compiling a similar list, thanks for saving me the effortthumbup It backs up my thoughts on the number or cars sold. The Huryra is on chassis 58 by the way and will be 60 by Xmas; sorry that's my inner geek coming out. This is why I was questioning Tommy's sales numbers; I have never broken them down globally. It does indicate that that the singular Huryra model has so far outsold outsold the 4 Agera variants 58 to 35.

But as you said I am not trying to point score here, I just want to present the facts
It took much longer than I'd have thought! I know some of the numbers might be out, ever so slightly.

zondaboy

106 posts

137 months

Saturday 25th October 2014
quotequote all
The Agera is said to be very robust and if reliability issues have been sorted on older Koenigsegg models then it's probably safe to say that Koenigseggs are the perfect top-end, low-volume supercars when taking price into account and comparing them to what else is on the market in that category.

I once heard that if you put a manual Koenigsegg into 6th gear you can drive it in auto. Would be great if you could drive one as a GT. Does anyone know if this is true?

gregf40

Original Poster:

1,114 posts

115 months

Monday 27th October 2014
quotequote all
Wow - thanks for all the responses everyone - loads of information for me to digest.

Something has come up which looks like my time will be consumed at least until Christmas but hopefully I will be able to get down and visit Tommy early next year.

zondaboy

106 posts

137 months

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Wednesday 29th October 2014
quotequote all
Great discussion and thanks Tommy for your info.
Like many, I haven't really been aware of K'egg and my impression is generally based on probable misconceptions.
They need to do a LOT more with the marketing and also keep supporting a stronger secondary market.
Good luck with continued success. Nice to have another option. Getting a bit bored of the conventional manufacturer vip/secret squirrel to get on hallowed lists bullst.