Stuck! Got £60k and fancy 360, Gallardo or DeTomaso Pantera
Discussion
I am completely biased having owned my DeTomaso Pantera for 29 years now, but I'd recommend going with the Pantera hands down.
While I truly appreciate the beautiful Ferraris and Lambos, it's the rumbling raw torque from the Pantera's 351 Cleveland just inches behind me and the unbelievable shove it provides from just 2,000 RPM that is so intoxicating for me. The wailing of a Ferrari/Lambo from 5,000 RPM up is a thing of beauty and sends chills up my spine, but the Pantera's low and mid range torque, where in reality you operate 90% of the time in a street driven car, can't be beat.
What other car can you name that can tick along at 30 mph in 5th gear without bucking or lugging the engine, and then simply step on the gaspedal and accelerate to 150+ without shifting a single time? Torque rules on the street. :-)
Throw in the minimal and very inexpensive maintenance that a well sorted Pantera requires and you've got something that is mighty hard to beat. I do all my own maintenance & mine has cost me less than $500 per year over the last 29 years to insure and maintain. Try that with a Ferrari or Lamborghini. ;-)
While I truly appreciate the beautiful Ferraris and Lambos, it's the rumbling raw torque from the Pantera's 351 Cleveland just inches behind me and the unbelievable shove it provides from just 2,000 RPM that is so intoxicating for me. The wailing of a Ferrari/Lambo from 5,000 RPM up is a thing of beauty and sends chills up my spine, but the Pantera's low and mid range torque, where in reality you operate 90% of the time in a street driven car, can't be beat.
What other car can you name that can tick along at 30 mph in 5th gear without bucking or lugging the engine, and then simply step on the gaspedal and accelerate to 150+ without shifting a single time? Torque rules on the street. :-)
Throw in the minimal and very inexpensive maintenance that a well sorted Pantera requires and you've got something that is mighty hard to beat. I do all my own maintenance & mine has cost me less than $500 per year over the last 29 years to insure and maintain. Try that with a Ferrari or Lamborghini. ;-)
Edited by pantera1973 on Tuesday 6th January 21:16
Looking at the European market/LHD motors you seem to get a LOT more for your money. Exchange rate is very good at the moment which helps.
I don't mind LHD and am used to driving them so my enjoyment will only be marginally hampered.
Is there a glaring reason not to buy one and get a better car for the money?
I don't mind LHD and am used to driving them so my enjoyment will only be marginally hampered.
Is there a glaring reason not to buy one and get a better car for the money?
FrankAbagnale said:
I've got up to about £50k now which moves me in to 360 territory and I can't find anything I'd rather have.
I'm a bit wary as everyone I have spoken to says to try and avoid being the cheapest of any car, as you'll spend on servicing and costs what you saved on the purchase price. I think it's a solid piece of advice so will have to think hard about it with respect to the 360 as from my searches £50k does put me towards the "bottom".
I read the PH buyers guide from 2012 which says they start around £35k - has the bottom really pushed up £10k in two years?!
The 360 in the buyers guide is mine. I purchased it the day those pics where taken.I'm a bit wary as everyone I have spoken to says to try and avoid being the cheapest of any car, as you'll spend on servicing and costs what you saved on the purchase price. I think it's a solid piece of advice so will have to think hard about it with respect to the 360 as from my searches £50k does put me towards the "bottom".
I read the PH buyers guide from 2012 which says they start around £35k - has the bottom really pushed up £10k in two years?!
I am actually thinking of selling mine so could be persuaded. At the moment I don't think there are any other TDF's available. I have only done about 1000 miles in mine over the last 2 years so just don't get the use it deserves. I have also added a genuine stradale rear grill and not a challenge grill. I have also fitted a 430 exhaust which was purchased from Voicey. It is very loud but gives the most amazing sound in sport mode on a down shift.
p3rcyp said:
The 360 in the buyers guide is mine. I purchased it the day those pics where taken.
I am actually thinking of selling mine so could be persuaded. At the moment I don't think there are any other TDF's available. I have only done about 1000 miles in mine over the last 2 years so just don't get the use it deserves. I have also added a genuine stradale rear grill and not a challenge grill. I have also fitted a 430 exhaust which was purchased from Voicey. It is very loud but gives the most amazing sound in sport mode on a down shift.
I'll send you a PMI am actually thinking of selling mine so could be persuaded. At the moment I don't think there are any other TDF's available. I have only done about 1000 miles in mine over the last 2 years so just don't get the use it deserves. I have also added a genuine stradale rear grill and not a challenge grill. I have also fitted a 430 exhaust which was purchased from Voicey. It is very loud but gives the most amazing sound in sport mode on a down shift.
Obviously I'm biased because I've had my Pantera GT5-S for 15 years now.
1) You say you don't mind a LHD - there may be some bargains had if you don't mind shopping in the US due to the Exchange rate and relative availability of cars over there. If you do get serious about shopping over there, send me a PM and there is an extensive and reliable owner support network that could help inspect cars for you (for free, usually) that can save you money on airfare and improve the likelihood of getting a really good car
2) Another advantage of buying a US car is that many have really silly powerful engines. Aftermarket parts are cheap and there is a lot of experience. You also need to tread carefully because not everyone knows as much as they think they know
3) Reliability - my engine blew up during the drive home from buying it (true story) so I don't know if I should talk about it being a strong point!!!! But rebuilding it to develop 480bhp as opposed to the 350bhp it developed stock cost less than an oil change for the Ferraris you are considering
Obviously exaggerating, but the maintenance costs for a Pantera will be much less than a Ferrari. Most of the engine parts are Ford (readily and cheaply available). There are no computers to go bad, there are no timing belts to change (an aftermarket timing chain lasts 100k miles or more). I adjust my valves once a year, change the fluids, and that's it.
4) I take the car on at least one long trip per year - Classic Le Mans, Spa Italia, Austria twice, etc. I wouldn't think twice about throwing some clothes in the (large) trunk and heading off for a week of touring.
5) It's different. I attend a few car events here in Spain, and I am (inevitably) the only Pantera there in a sea of Ferraris/Lambos. I bought the car because I like it, not because of its rarity, but it's another Factory
6) DeTomaso Mangusta prices have skyrocketed recently. 2 examples were sold in the UK for 250k GBP, +/- within the past year. This has pushed Pantera prices up as well. GT5-S cars are now selling for twice what they sold for 7-8 years ago. What will happen in the future? Who knows - my car is my passion and not an investment, but the market appears to be increasing if this is important to you
All the cars you are considering are fantastic. The Ferrari/Lambo will be very different from the PAntera, as there are 30 years of engineering. If there is any way to spend some time behind the Wheel of all three, see which one tugs at your heartstrings most! You can't make a bad decisión...
1) You say you don't mind a LHD - there may be some bargains had if you don't mind shopping in the US due to the Exchange rate and relative availability of cars over there. If you do get serious about shopping over there, send me a PM and there is an extensive and reliable owner support network that could help inspect cars for you (for free, usually) that can save you money on airfare and improve the likelihood of getting a really good car
2) Another advantage of buying a US car is that many have really silly powerful engines. Aftermarket parts are cheap and there is a lot of experience. You also need to tread carefully because not everyone knows as much as they think they know
3) Reliability - my engine blew up during the drive home from buying it (true story) so I don't know if I should talk about it being a strong point!!!! But rebuilding it to develop 480bhp as opposed to the 350bhp it developed stock cost less than an oil change for the Ferraris you are considering
Obviously exaggerating, but the maintenance costs for a Pantera will be much less than a Ferrari. Most of the engine parts are Ford (readily and cheaply available). There are no computers to go bad, there are no timing belts to change (an aftermarket timing chain lasts 100k miles or more). I adjust my valves once a year, change the fluids, and that's it. 4) I take the car on at least one long trip per year - Classic Le Mans, Spa Italia, Austria twice, etc. I wouldn't think twice about throwing some clothes in the (large) trunk and heading off for a week of touring.
5) It's different. I attend a few car events here in Spain, and I am (inevitably) the only Pantera there in a sea of Ferraris/Lambos. I bought the car because I like it, not because of its rarity, but it's another Factory
6) DeTomaso Mangusta prices have skyrocketed recently. 2 examples were sold in the UK for 250k GBP, +/- within the past year. This has pushed Pantera prices up as well. GT5-S cars are now selling for twice what they sold for 7-8 years ago. What will happen in the future? Who knows - my car is my passion and not an investment, but the market appears to be increasing if this is important to you
All the cars you are considering are fantastic. The Ferrari/Lambo will be very different from the PAntera, as there are 30 years of engineering. If there is any way to spend some time behind the Wheel of all three, see which one tugs at your heartstrings most! You can't make a bad decisión...
What a great thread and thanks for the contribution of the owners. Took me straight back to the mid 70's as a teenager arguing about the relative merits of the Pantera, Urraco, etc.
I love the passion and enthusiasm for the Pantera coming through, it still looks absolutely great, and I can imagine how much attention it would command at any car meet.
This is the stuff that PH is great for please keep it coming...now where are all those old Performance Car mags I had in the loft?
I love the passion and enthusiasm for the Pantera coming through, it still looks absolutely great, and I can imagine how much attention it would command at any car meet.
This is the stuff that PH is great for please keep it coming...now where are all those old Performance Car mags I had in the loft?
Thanks for the contribution GT5_S. As you say all very nice and all great to own. The first challenge is to find a genuine GT5/GT5S. And the second is to find one that is reasonably priced. I guess it's all relative but I'm having a problem justifying the current asking prices for Pantera's which are clearly in Gallardo territory and heading for the price of a Diablo. And whilst I'd love either and don't want to knock one over the other if the price is the same I think I'd have to go Diablo.
Problems, problems, but what a problem to,have eh?.
Problems, problems, but what a problem to,have eh?.
One other difference between the cars you are considering and another factor in favor of the Pantera... When the Pantera was produced, like other cars from that era they didn't have to conform to the same pesky noise and contamination laws that modern cars do. That means that they produce a sound that is difficult to beat in a modern car. If you stand next to a modern Ferrari/Lamborghini with a stock exhaust system, at tickover you don't really hear much. It isn't until you really step on the trottle that the sound comes alive. You can always go the aftermarket route in a modern car, but you can do the same with a Pantera as well..
On the other hand, a Pantera at idle just sounds mean, and it gets better when you start driving. One thing I like about the car is that you FEEL the engine as much as you hear it. The whole car vibrates a Little bit and you can feel the engine in your bones. It makes the hair stand up on my arms every time I start it.
There are real GT5/GT5-S cars that change hands - I know of 3 that have changed owners in the past 12 months, all RHD I think. The market is small, so these deals are often made through word of mouth as opposed to being published in the mass media. I'd get in touch with the UK DeTomaso club if you decide to go that way and have them put feelers out for you.
As you say, it's a great dilemna to have!
On the other hand, a Pantera at idle just sounds mean, and it gets better when you start driving. One thing I like about the car is that you FEEL the engine as much as you hear it. The whole car vibrates a Little bit and you can feel the engine in your bones. It makes the hair stand up on my arms every time I start it.
There are real GT5/GT5-S cars that change hands - I know of 3 that have changed owners in the past 12 months, all RHD I think. The market is small, so these deals are often made through word of mouth as opposed to being published in the mass media. I'd get in touch with the UK DeTomaso club if you decide to go that way and have them put feelers out for you.
As you say, it's a great dilemna to have!
That's a great point you made GT5S_1985; the way a Pantera plays to all your senses. I have several friends with newer model Ferraris and Lamborghinis who tell me that while their cars are unbelievably fast, refined, and have tremendous handling and braking; they actually find driving them less satisfying than other "less refined" cars they have owned in the past. They say they miss the tactile sensation/connection.
Myself, I like that the Pantera is a little "rough around the edges". People almost always hear you before they see you. When you stop somewhere, people wait around for you to leave just to hear it start up. It's a car that demands that you truly "drive" it if you wish to explore it's performance envelope. 4 wheel drive, ABS, active suspensions, etc are great safety advancements, but they can indeed take something away from the tactile feelings that so many enjoy. If one goes strictly by the numbers, today's Super/Hyper Cars can rings around many earlier Supercars; but the technology required to escalate them to those levels does tend to disconnect the driver from alot of the sensations.
But heck, what do I know; I personally think one of the all time coolest/most awesome cars to drive would be an original 427 Cobra. No windows, no a/c, no ABS, no power-steering, no Autoshift. It's hot, it's loud, it's not very comfortable, it's about as unrefined as you can possibly get; and it would be an incredible amount of fun to drive!!
Myself, I like that the Pantera is a little "rough around the edges". People almost always hear you before they see you. When you stop somewhere, people wait around for you to leave just to hear it start up. It's a car that demands that you truly "drive" it if you wish to explore it's performance envelope. 4 wheel drive, ABS, active suspensions, etc are great safety advancements, but they can indeed take something away from the tactile feelings that so many enjoy. If one goes strictly by the numbers, today's Super/Hyper Cars can rings around many earlier Supercars; but the technology required to escalate them to those levels does tend to disconnect the driver from alot of the sensations.
But heck, what do I know; I personally think one of the all time coolest/most awesome cars to drive would be an original 427 Cobra. No windows, no a/c, no ABS, no power-steering, no Autoshift. It's hot, it's loud, it's not very comfortable, it's about as unrefined as you can possibly get; and it would be an incredible amount of fun to drive!!
OP, did you make any further progress?
I'd be interested to hear whether you decided on Pantera and went for it or if you've swayed another way?
I have wavered between a 360, 355 and an R8.
355 - Classic, appreciating in value, great noise, it's a Ferrari... but it's bloody hard to find a nice one sub £60k. I need to buy privately to achieve what I want and there's no stock around.
360 - It's a Ferrari, appreciating in value. But, no matter how hard I try to love it, I just don't.
R8 - Great styling, good noise, modern. But, the interior is awful, it's not a Ferrari and it's not appreciating.
With the Euro being so strong i'm considering taking a dip in to the LHD 355 market. My search has gone from fun and exciting to frustrating. I just want to find a nice car and buy it.
I'd be interested to hear whether you decided on Pantera and went for it or if you've swayed another way?
I have wavered between a 360, 355 and an R8.
355 - Classic, appreciating in value, great noise, it's a Ferrari... but it's bloody hard to find a nice one sub £60k. I need to buy privately to achieve what I want and there's no stock around.
360 - It's a Ferrari, appreciating in value. But, no matter how hard I try to love it, I just don't.
R8 - Great styling, good noise, modern. But, the interior is awful, it's not a Ferrari and it's not appreciating.
With the Euro being so strong i'm considering taking a dip in to the LHD 355 market. My search has gone from fun and exciting to frustrating. I just want to find a nice car and buy it.
FrankAbagnale said:
360 - It's a Ferrari, appreciating in value. But, no matter how hard I try to love it, I just don't.
Should have gone to specsavers 
I used to agree because it was such a step change in design but the 360 shape has aged very well. It is 15 years old now.
It also has a fantastic 40 valve engine (even though some think it's slow it sounds fabulous) and an alloy chassis and body.
I would definitely go for the 360 for 60k or under out of that list.
Beautiful car, looks fantastic in photographs yet somehow they still don't do it justice- in the flesh it's stunning and looks every bit a super car- still quick enough by most standards, a good one should hold/gain in value. It's an iconic Ferrari design, I personally much prefer it to the 355 which to me looks wise is alluding to another era.
When I was looking for a pre LP Gallardo over a year ago (bought something else...), 06+ update car was around 75k. Since then they have become even harder to find, more and more seem to be going overseas and the number of good, unmolested low/reasonable miles cars would I imagine be extremely limited. They will cost more now, and even a good 05 car with low miles may be over the 60k budget. For what it's worth- the one car I did drive didn't impress me at all. Didn't feel particularly quick, or exciting to drive, noise was good but not spectacular, just didn't feel nimble or rapid enough for me and was a bit of a let down.
The LP 560 I am sure is a massive improvement and is the one to buy (around 90k-95k though).
Looks and attention wise- little comes close under 100k or even over. Despite it leaving me cold as far as driving experience, as an object to look at, get in to, cruise around in it still has a sense of occasion that is hard to beat.
Beautiful car, looks fantastic in photographs yet somehow they still don't do it justice- in the flesh it's stunning and looks every bit a super car- still quick enough by most standards, a good one should hold/gain in value. It's an iconic Ferrari design, I personally much prefer it to the 355 which to me looks wise is alluding to another era.
When I was looking for a pre LP Gallardo over a year ago (bought something else...), 06+ update car was around 75k. Since then they have become even harder to find, more and more seem to be going overseas and the number of good, unmolested low/reasonable miles cars would I imagine be extremely limited. They will cost more now, and even a good 05 car with low miles may be over the 60k budget. For what it's worth- the one car I did drive didn't impress me at all. Didn't feel particularly quick, or exciting to drive, noise was good but not spectacular, just didn't feel nimble or rapid enough for me and was a bit of a let down.
The LP 560 I am sure is a massive improvement and is the one to buy (around 90k-95k though).
Looks and attention wise- little comes close under 100k or even over. Despite it leaving me cold as far as driving experience, as an object to look at, get in to, cruise around in it still has a sense of occasion that is hard to beat.
Carl,
If you're hanging on for a RHD then run a Google UK alert (De Tomaso for sale) plus contact the drivers club as in the UK that's your best bet.
Of course you'll find something down under but by the time you bring it here it may cost you.
If you don't mind a kack-hander (I found mine in Belgium) then you could do worse than keep an eye on the German sites, mobile.de and the othe one I've forgot right now. I'm sure someone will chime in.
Good luck.
Phil
If you're hanging on for a RHD then run a Google UK alert (De Tomaso for sale) plus contact the drivers club as in the UK that's your best bet.
Of course you'll find something down under but by the time you bring it here it may cost you.
If you don't mind a kack-hander (I found mine in Belgium) then you could do worse than keep an eye on the German sites, mobile.de and the othe one I've forgot right now. I'm sure someone will chime in.
Good luck.
Phil
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