Buying wisely and cars as investments
Discussion
thecook101 said:
Private cars are CGT exempt - https://www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax-personal-poss...
But I believe there's a very fine line regarding how many cars you can sell and over what time. This difference being defined as a private owner and trade seller. Not sure of the details but the taxman isn't an idiot. twoblacklines said:
_Leg_ said:
Looked it up. There is a £6000 limit but how on Earth can the HMRC police that?
I own loads of art (because i like it, not for investment) but I haven't bothered to keep a record of what I paid for it or from whom and if I was to sell it in a private sale, where is the record of the sale going to appear?
Well if you sold a Rolex for example it would be easy to gauge the average sale price of x Rolex at x time. They would probably charge you tax on that figure, it would be up to you to prove that figure is incorrect.I own loads of art (because i like it, not for investment) but I haven't bothered to keep a record of what I paid for it or from whom and if I was to sell it in a private sale, where is the record of the sale going to appear?
Remember these days if HMRC think you owe them, they can just take it straight out your bank, guilty until proven innocent!
Still don't see how they even know a sale has happened if I sold you a watch. It's not like the watch is registered anywhere like a car is. I don't think they are monitoring our every move and action quite yet. Err, are they?
As for cars as investments everything in life has peaks and troughs. How you feel, the value of things, relationships, what's on telly, the weather, you name it, good days and bad days. I can't think of many things that are always up or always down. The trick is not to go balls deep into just one thing. If you watch TV all the time sometimes you'll watch s
t so only watch TV when something good is on. Same goes for investments. Have cars, have stocks, have property etc. When one is down, something else will be up.Most importantly don't put yourself in a situation where you have to sell something at the wrong time. You'll often hear, "Don't invest money you can't afford to lose". I think "Don't invest in things you can't afford to keep until the right time to sell" is more relevant.
The bonus with cars is you can drive them when you own them, stocks, property etc don't have that aspect.
Edited by _Leg_ on Sunday 21st August 09:43
I think the starting point for cars is that most new cars lose 40/50% of their value in first 3 years, and even second hand cars can lose a similar percentage amount over the same time period. The starting point for owning something a little more special is often around 'can I afford it' and 'can I justify it'. Especially to your partner.
On this basis, I would rather own an early 997 C2 S than a run of the mill newish Renault/Ford/VW etc. It is quite likely that the Porsche will cost no more to run (after costs) than the run of the mill alternatives and be a lot more fun.
I have owned well over 50 cars in my life, and by far the biggest accumulated cost is from the everyday cars, and not the enthusiast/collector/sports cars.
I currently have a mixture of cars. Some have gone up in value, some have gone down, and some have stayed the same. All have given me and my friends and family great times, from trips to Goodwood and Brands Hatch, and forays into France for Le Mans. There is no price on those trips.
Ultimately, the only advice that makes sense to me, and has been echoed many times on ph, is only spend what you can afford to lose, and only buy what you will enjoy using, even if its only for a few sunny days a year.
On this basis, I would rather own an early 997 C2 S than a run of the mill newish Renault/Ford/VW etc. It is quite likely that the Porsche will cost no more to run (after costs) than the run of the mill alternatives and be a lot more fun.
I have owned well over 50 cars in my life, and by far the biggest accumulated cost is from the everyday cars, and not the enthusiast/collector/sports cars.
I currently have a mixture of cars. Some have gone up in value, some have gone down, and some have stayed the same. All have given me and my friends and family great times, from trips to Goodwood and Brands Hatch, and forays into France for Le Mans. There is no price on those trips.
Ultimately, the only advice that makes sense to me, and has been echoed many times on ph, is only spend what you can afford to lose, and only buy what you will enjoy using, even if its only for a few sunny days a year.
Interesting discussion.
We seem to be living in an age where not only hyper-cars like the P1, LaFerrari etc appreciate in value straight from the showrooms but so do limited editions like the Speciale, Aventador SV, GT3 RS etc.
Has this always been the case? Did it happen with the F40, F50, Challenge Stradale, Carrera GT etc in the 90s and early 00s?
It seems like these days anyone lucky enough to land a slot for one of these cars not only gets to enjoy an amazing car but they also get paid 10s if not 100s of thousands of pounds for the pleasure of doing so should they choose to sell after X months or years - it's not a bad way to live. *note to self,must work harder in life*.
We seem to be living in an age where not only hyper-cars like the P1, LaFerrari etc appreciate in value straight from the showrooms but so do limited editions like the Speciale, Aventador SV, GT3 RS etc.
Has this always been the case? Did it happen with the F40, F50, Challenge Stradale, Carrera GT etc in the 90s and early 00s?
It seems like these days anyone lucky enough to land a slot for one of these cars not only gets to enjoy an amazing car but they also get paid 10s if not 100s of thousands of pounds for the pleasure of doing so should they choose to sell after X months or years - it's not a bad way to live. *note to self,must work harder in life*.
_Leg_ said:
Most importantly don't put yourself in a situation where you have to sell something at the wrong time. You'll often hear, "Don't invest money you can't afford to lose". I think "Don't invest in things you can't afford to keep until the right time to sell" is more relevant.
The bonus with cars is you can drive them when you own them, stocks, property etc don't have that aspect.
So true. If you buy wisely, and buy cars that you love, then you only lose if you are forced into a sale. The bonus with cars is you can drive them when you own them, stocks, property etc don't have that aspect.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 21st August 09:43
BlackLabel said:
Interesting discussion.
Has this always been the case? Did it happen with the F40, F50, Challenge Stradale, Carrera GT etc in the 90s and early 00s
No, it has not always been the case, but has happened in the past.Has this always been the case? Did it happen with the F40, F50, Challenge Stradale, Carrera GT etc in the 90s and early 00s
I believe F40s were trading for multiples of purchase price end of the 80s. From memory they were down to below 200k around 2005/6 though and in the mide 200 to mid 300 euro bracket a few years ago (less than 5)
F50 was available for about 350k euros around 5-6 years ago. Not sure if they were ever lower than that (and if is is below list - would assume it is at least inflation adjusted)
CGT was still a 300-400k euro car vs list of more than 400k euros as little as 2 years ago. i also seem to remember that a few guys on PH were buying them back for less than 200k sterling when they were less than 3 years old.
You could pick up a challenge stradale for 70-80k euros a few years ago (as a matter of fact I think RHD were also as low as 70-80k sterling) at the time (again, maybe around 6 years ago) .
So in summary, there have been very few cars that never dipped below list. I think (nott 100 percent sure) Enzos were never below list, but available for as little as 700k euros at some point. I think the 997 RS 4.0 might have never dipped below list as RHD car, LHD I think were at or maybe a little below list at some point.
Happy to be corrected by somebody with a better memory than me - as I never had enough money for any of the above cars, my memory might be a little inaccurate and I am sure some owners will have a better feel for the market movements in the past.
Edit: one addition - I believe the 599 Aperta was never below list, but the 599 GTO was (the predecessros 550 Barchetta and 575 Superamerica were available quite cheap a few years after launch - not as limited though)
Edited by MDL111 on Sunday 21st August 18:28
cgt2 said:
MDL111 said:
I believe F40s were trading for multiples of purchase price end of the 80s. From memory they were down to below 200k around 2005/6 though and in the mide 200 to mid 300 euro bracket a few years ago (less than 5)
Even less, I was offered an F40 for £90k in 2000/2001.It will be interesting to see if these 80s/90s/00s low tech cars will at some point have fewer buyers as the new money / and the younger people seem more interested in the latest torque vec here, rear wheel steering there,,0-200 in a nanosecond etc type cars (e.g. Not sure if any of those youtube guys have bought an older car, seems they and their viewers are much more into the new stuff, and I guess these are - to an extent - the buyers who will have to buy from the current owners eventually.)
Edit: maybe as RamboLambo says the first McLarens will become really sought after as the first models some of these guys grew up with / they lead to a change in how cars are built
Edited by MDL111 on Sunday 21st August 19:42
cgt2 said:
Even less, I was offered an F40 for £90k in 2000/2001.
Yep, amazing but true. Car salesman friend of mine had a client back in the day who was torn between a new 355 or a used F40. They were the same price! The guy bought a 355. Bet he doesn't lose much sleep over that one! 
An even better story is an older friend of mine who was offered the choice of a new Testarossa or 288GTO in 1985. Used to deal with Shaun Bealey (lovely gent) at Maranello Concessionaires. He thought the GTO looked too much like a relatively common 308 and opted for the more radical looking Testarossa...
cgt2 said:
An even better story is an older friend of mine who was offered the choice of a new Testarossa or 288GTO in 1985. Used to deal with Shaun Bealey (lovely gent) at Maranello Concessionaires. He thought the GTO looked too much like a relatively common 308 and opted for the more radical looking Testarossa...
you live and you learn .... I do remember being at Verdi in 2008 (I think) and looking at a clean looking 33k Testarossa - seemed like a lot of car for the money - was tempted to trade my 355 for it at the timecgt2 said:
An even better story is an older friend of mine who was offered the choice of a new Testarossa or 288GTO in 1985. Used to deal with Shaun Bealey (lovely gent) at Maranello Concessionaires. He thought the GTO looked too much like a relatively common 308 and opted for the more radical looking Testarossa...
That's a great story. It's also perhaps a good example how the market has changed forever. The explosive growth of the mobile web since 2012 mixed with a gigantic dollop of global QE has led to a worldwide sentiment/valuations/marketplace impossible to imagine in 1985. Camlet said:
That's a great story. It's also perhaps a good example how the market has changed forever. The explosive growth of the mobile web since 2012 mixed with a gigantic dollop of global QE has led to a worldwide sentiment/valuations/marketplace impossible to imagine in 1985.
+1Back in '85 it was mainly cash rich buyers and those in-the-know. Ferraris and Lambos were seen as distant, exotic, and dangerous.
Camlet said:
That's a great story. It's also perhaps a good example how the market has changed forever. The explosive growth of the mobile web since 2012 mixed with a gigantic dollop of global QE has led to a worldwide sentiment/valuations/marketplace impossible to imagine in 1985.
+1The days of getting a 2nd hand car bargain are long gone. Manufacturers do not sell cars nowadays, they merely rent them out for 3 years hence have a vested interest in maintaining 2nd hand values for their balance sheets. The classifieds seem to be stagnating with cars that dont sell and dont depreciate.
sparta6 said:
+1
Back in '85 it was mainly cash rich buyers and those in-the-know. Ferraris and Lambos were seen as distant, exotic, and dangerous.
Correct. Seeing a Mondial or 512BBi was an occasion, seeing a Testarossa was jaw dropping and seeing a Countach was simply like seeing a spaceship. I'll never forget the moment a Countach appeared at the top of our road once in the late 80s. It was truly one of the most memorable moments of my life. The thread of old Lambo photos on here brings back some fantastic memories.Back in '85 it was mainly cash rich buyers and those in-the-know. Ferraris and Lambos were seen as distant, exotic, and dangerous.
Even when I got my first Ferrari in the mid 90s it was very rare to see one on the road and they were still hard cars to drive so by nature more limited in appeal.
These days you are tripping over supercars pretty much anywhere in the South East and many are driven by fat businessmen who are more concerned with the statement it makes about them than the driving experience.
The wow factor went for me long ago and I get more excited about seeing a mint Integrale or R230 SL these days than I do any modern Ferrari or Lambo.
cgt2 said:
The wow factor went for me long ago and I get more excited about seeing a mint Integrale or R230 SL these days than I do any modern Ferrari or Lambo.
That's a sentiment that I fully echo. The days of getting excited by modern Supercars for me is gone. Many of them leave me cold, possibly as anyone on a decent salary can get finance for one and wear it as a badge.cgt2 said:
Correct. Seeing a Mondial or 512BBi was an occasion, seeing a Testarossa was jaw dropping and seeing a Countach was simply like seeing a spaceship. I'll never forget the moment a Countach appeared at the top of our road once in the late 80s. It was truly one of the most memorable moments of my life. The thread of old Lambo photos on here brings back some fantastic memories.
Even when I got my first Ferrari in the mid 90s it was very rare to see one on the road and they were still hard cars to drive so by nature more limited in appeal.
These days you are tripping over supercars pretty much anywhere in the South East and many are driven by fat businessmen who are more concerned with the statement it makes about them than the driving experience.
The wow factor went for me long ago and I get more excited about seeing a mint Integrale or R230 SL these days than I do any modern Ferrari or Lambo.
Really? Shurely shome mishtake?Even when I got my first Ferrari in the mid 90s it was very rare to see one on the road and they were still hard cars to drive so by nature more limited in appeal.
These days you are tripping over supercars pretty much anywhere in the South East and many are driven by fat businessmen who are more concerned with the statement it makes about them than the driving experience.
The wow factor went for me long ago and I get more excited about seeing a mint Integrale or R230 SL these days than I do any modern Ferrari or Lambo.
Otherwise I fully agree, good post, I'll never forget a Countach arriving outside a restaurant in France when I was a kid in the late 80s with their daughter perched on the centre console. It couldn't even make the turn in the car park without reversing but it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen!
It's true, fancy cars are a lot more common these days, but I'd add a few caveats. One, sadly nothing is quite as exciting as it was when you were a kid. Those formative experiences (the Countach, the Testarossa, etc) are just so powerful and last a lifetime. But the same thing happens now. I turned up at my brother's house in my 599 and my 9-year old nephew damn near wet himself with excitement. Second, outside of central London they're really not common. I live only 70 miles north of London and in the past year I'd say that sightings of Ferrari, Lambo and McLaren combined is still in single digits. As for the genuine, full-fat supercar stuff, they're almost non-existent on the road outside of London. Saw an Enzo drive past last month and it literally stopped me in my tracks.
bryn_p said:
Really? Shurely shome mishtake?
Otherwise I fully agree, good post, I'll never forget a Countach arriving outside a restaurant in France when I was a kid in the late 80s with their daughter perched on the centre console. It couldn't even make the turn in the car park without reversing but it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen!
Haha late night typo! I meant R107...Otherwise I fully agree, good post, I'll never forget a Countach arriving outside a restaurant in France when I was a kid in the late 80s with their daughter perched on the centre console. It couldn't even make the turn in the car park without reversing but it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen!
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