Buying wisely and cars as investments
Discussion
MDL111 said:
thecook101 said:
.... Sure it's the pinnacle, but pop a 288 GTO in my garage and tell me I can only sit in it and drive it a few times a year and you won't hear me complaining....
this would drive my absolutely nuts - if I own something I want to be able to use it every day...Edited by thecook101 on Monday 8th August 13:25
And assume what makes them so very special is that FO moment you look from 12 inches at the exquisite form most people only see in a book sitting quiet ready for you, you disconnect the battery conditioner and you fire her up listening to an orchestra of sound that dreams are made of, and you take her for a long long drive pinching yourself at how fortunate you are, how every late night at the office is worth it.
Multiply by say at least twice a month and then add across five very special toys. It perhaps explains why using them as a DD is N/A.
I agree leaving to them to sit alone for years is depressing, and expensive to re-commission properly.
Camlet said:
z4RRSchris said:
It's an asset bubble, people who bought anything less than blue chip cars in top nick will get destroyed
This.hornbaek said:
Camlet said:
z4RRSchris said:
It's an asset bubble, people who bought anything less than blue chip cars in top nick will get destroyed
This.Auctions are showing what's really happening to values, but the indices etc only count the sold cars (which are now of disproportionately good quality) towards their 'average values'.
On a lot of stuff, it is unclear what the real value is currently - ie the price at which it would sell, because there are no buyers at current prices and not many sellers who are adjusting. When there's 'capitulation' by sellers, caused by circumstance, holding costs, reality or panic, then we will see a big let down, IMO.
You can make money investing in cars, if you are very good, knowledgable and disciplined, but that time is not now. In a year or two or three, then probably a good time to buy. In a rising market, then I'd say that low finance is not a bad thing, but again is only for the experts, not as a way of buying lots of toys of varying quality. No-one thinks twice about 'leveraging' property for example, but you need to remember that the car produces no income so you have to be able to make the payments from elsewhere, on the assumption that you can't cash in immediately if funds dry up.
So I would say, always buy what you like and want to drive. If you have the cash, keep an eye out for buying opportunities soon, but right now, don't buy anything at all that has gone through the roof in pricing terms over the last 3-4 years, unless you have so much cash you don't care. (Which is an unlikely combination for most of us...)
ETA: the above is on the topic of buying cars as an investment...there is always the old fashioned way which is to buy a car you can afford and accept the cost of owning it! Not everything is going to have much of a "future value" despite what the forums have said for the last few years!
Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 10th August 09:10
Camlet said:
MDL111 said:
thecook101 said:
.... Sure it's the pinnacle, but pop a 288 GTO in my garage and tell me I can only sit in it and drive it a few times a year and you won't hear me complaining....
this would drive my absolutely nuts - if I own something I want to be able to use it every day...Edited by thecook101 on Monday 8th August 13:25
And assume what makes them so very special is that FO moment you look from 12 inches at the exquisite form most people only see in a book sitting quiet ready for you, you disconnect the battery conditioner and you fire her up listening to an orchestra of sound that dreams are made of, and you take her for a long long drive pinching yourself at how fortunate you are, how every late night at the office is worth it.
Multiply by say at least twice a month and then add across five very special toys. It perhaps explains why using them as a DD is N/A.
I agree leaving to them to sit alone for years is depressing, and expensive to re-commission properly.
Interesting thread, especially as I've just put a deposit on a F430. The car is mint, done 14k and is from a reputable dealer for 90k. It's more than I've ever spent on a car but I'm pushing the boat out as I think it's safer than an M4 or a realively affordable performance car.
I'm using finance, but at 6%apr it's cheap and I'm happy with the monthly cost as my enjoyment and pleasure at owning and driving a Ferrari. Sure many will disagree but life is short, money is cheap and I've taken a risk - but one I'm happy with. Even if the market drops, a good Ferrari in good condition with good provenance/history will still be worth something. If I lose 20k in a couple of years, so be it. But I intend to use and enjoy.
I've bought with my head and my heart. A Merc GT-S, a similarly priced R8 or a newish 911 would plummet, IMHO. A new 911 GTS is well over 100k, and I'm sure many would prefer the newer car but when you can have a mint F430 for less money it's a no brainer. Also the prices of new 488s are keeping 458s high and so on - yes this may change but I'm pretty sure that for the next 12-18 months I can run and enjoy the car and when it comes to selling to get most of my money back out - I'm not looking to make a profit, more minimise the depreciation.
Ferraris and Lamborghinis will always be poster cars and will always be sought after. And there will only be a select few good ones. I agree the bad ones will drop, but this will only increase the value of the good ones, over time at least.
Though hell, what do I know. I've just bought a damn Ferrari! (Justification and man maths is all part of the fun...)
I'm using finance, but at 6%apr it's cheap and I'm happy with the monthly cost as my enjoyment and pleasure at owning and driving a Ferrari. Sure many will disagree but life is short, money is cheap and I've taken a risk - but one I'm happy with. Even if the market drops, a good Ferrari in good condition with good provenance/history will still be worth something. If I lose 20k in a couple of years, so be it. But I intend to use and enjoy.
I've bought with my head and my heart. A Merc GT-S, a similarly priced R8 or a newish 911 would plummet, IMHO. A new 911 GTS is well over 100k, and I'm sure many would prefer the newer car but when you can have a mint F430 for less money it's a no brainer. Also the prices of new 488s are keeping 458s high and so on - yes this may change but I'm pretty sure that for the next 12-18 months I can run and enjoy the car and when it comes to selling to get most of my money back out - I'm not looking to make a profit, more minimise the depreciation.
Ferraris and Lamborghinis will always be poster cars and will always be sought after. And there will only be a select few good ones. I agree the bad ones will drop, but this will only increase the value of the good ones, over time at least.
Though hell, what do I know. I've just bought a damn Ferrari! (Justification and man maths is all part of the fun...)
Oh and one other point. My ISA made me 1.5%. There is no interest in bank accounts. Buy to let market as of next year will be far less attractive. I don't play stocks & shares. I've just decided to enjoy my money. I could lose it on shares, overseas house crash.... At the end of the day we only live once and you can't take it with you.
Now my tune may change when school fees appear....
Now my tune may change when school fees appear....
footsoldier said:
ETA: Not everything is going to have much of a "future value" despite what the forums have said for the last few years!
Spot on. Though McLarens, 430s, 360s etc are very capable cars there are far too many of them around to be rare or collectible as people constantly say. A rare car is something there are tens of, not hundreds or thousands. Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 10th August 09:10
cgt2 said:
footsoldier said:
ETA: Not everything is going to have much of a "future value" despite what the forums have said for the last few years!
Spot on. Though McLarens, 430s, 360s etc are very capable cars there are far too many of them around to be rare or collectible as people constantly say. A rare car is something there are tens of, not hundreds or thousands. Edited by footsoldier on Wednesday 10th August 09:10
MDL111 said:
In addition I'd also say that just because a car is rare does not make it worth owning per se - some are rare for a reason
Indeed!https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Camargue
OK, so on topic and trying hard to steer clear of values, what do people think are wise buys in the supercar market at the moment? If a friend wanted to experience ownership of a car in this category, not new but used, what would you suggest? And this is not about 0-60 times since none of that is really relevant anymore, what would you put forward as your wise buy? My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago. Ferrari 430 or 599, Lambo Mercielago or Gallardo, AM V8 Vantage, TVR Sagaris..?
cgt2 said:
Spot on. Though McLarens, 430s, 360s etc are very capable cars there are far too many of them around to be rare or collectible as people constantly say. A rare car is something there are tens of, not hundreds or thousands.
The limited edition of these cars i.e. the manuals (not McLaren), and for the Gallardos, the 2wd manuals, will be the ones that go up in value due to their rarity.thecook101 said:
My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago.
I think that's about right. The bottom of the depreciation curve starts after 10 years but probably stays at the bottom for another 10-15 years before appreciation kicks in. However, the simplicity of this gets hammered by the impact of underlying economic cycles. Obviously, you also have to avoid the cars the future doesn't like - eg the Mondials & 400s. Then again, Dinos, both 246s and GT4s were once reviled and they are now both in favour... aesthetic predictions are incredibly difficult to get right.
That aside, I think the big unknown for cars built in the past 10 years or so is whether F1 style paddles will be desirable in, say, 20 years' time.
dang2407 said:
The limited edition of these cars i.e. the manuals (not McLaren), and for the Gallardos, the 2wd manuals, will be the ones that go up in value due to their rarity.
That appears to be the case now but who knows for sure, only time will tell, I think it's too early to be definitive. I bought a manual 575 and manual 430 six years apart and at both times no one wanted them compared to the F1's.
It has only been really over the past year that this theory has come along and whilst I sold the 430 most recently for more than the F1 equivalent, it wasn't an earth shattering difference and certainly not the difference that some on here suggest. 20% more is a nice uplift but not necessarily 'collectible' when the Scuderia is double the value of a regular F1. I know two other people that have sold manual 430's for very similar, ie. 20% more.
It also looks likely that Porsche will sell a GT3 again with a manual box next year, I wonder what this will do to the values of late 997 GT3's (which I love dearly) and other such manual cars.
The fact that a dealer is advertising a Cat.D manual 430 for £120k shows just how preposterous and unrealistic things are at the moment, that car was a £50k car only two years ago (and wouldn't have been saleable to most people).
MDL111 said:
cgt2 said:
footsoldier said:
ETA: Not everything is going to have much of a "future value" despite what the forums have said for the last few years!
Spot on. Though McLarens, 430s, 360s etc are very capable cars there are far too many of them around to be rare or collectible as people constantly say. A rare car is something there are tens of, not hundreds or thousands. The thing that sets cars apart from other 'investments' is that they have a function, they can be driven and enjoyed. So if the market softens and cars aren't selling at decent levels, people will just hold their cars and enjoy them, leading to a shortage of supply onto the market, which will help to suppress any potential 'off the cliff' drop in value.
I have my Maserati up for sale at the moment, I've had some interest but no buyer. It's a rare car, it's lovely, it drives beautifully, and it certainly won't be a hardship if it doesn't sell and I keep it and enjoy it for a few more years.
thecook101 said:
OK, so on topic and trying hard to steer clear of values, what do people think are wise buys in the supercar market at the moment? If a friend wanted to experience ownership of a car in this category, not new but used, what would you suggest? And this is not about 0-60 times since none of that is really relevant anymore, what would you put forward as your wise buy? My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago. Ferrari 430 or 599, Lambo Mercielago or Gallardo, AM V8 Vantage, TVR Sagaris..?
430 - mass market. Scuds are overpriced 599- mass market. GTO are over priced
Murci and Gallardo - Lamborghini never followed the Ferrari blue chip. Muria only exception and over priced.
Aston and TVR - no chance
z4RRSchris said:
thecook101 said:
OK, so on topic and trying hard to steer clear of values, what do people think are wise buys in the supercar market at the moment? If a friend wanted to experience ownership of a car in this category, not new but used, what would you suggest? And this is not about 0-60 times since none of that is really relevant anymore, what would you put forward as your wise buy? My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago. Ferrari 430 or 599, Lambo Mercielago or Gallardo, AM V8 Vantage, TVR Sagaris..?
430 - mass market. Scuds are overpriced 599- mass market. GTO are over priced
Murci and Gallardo - Lamborghini never followed the Ferrari blue chip. Muria only exception and over priced.
Aston and TVR - no chance
The Surveyor said:
Let's keep this in perspective. The investment-car market is facing a period of uncertainty but that doesn't mean that those cars will suddenly be worthless or will have no 'future value'. 360 Ferraris, McLarens or other similar cars won't all of a sudden be handed out free on street corners alongside unwanted D Type Jags. They won't because they are desirable and aspirational. Specialist cars of any age / volume will always have a value it's just that their value may be less than the initial price paid if the owner needs to sell at that particular time. 'Cars depreciate, shock horror!'
The thing that sets cars apart from other 'investments' is that they have a function, they can be driven and enjoyed. So if the market softens and cars aren't selling at decent levels, people will just hold their cars and enjoy them, leading to a shortage of supply onto the market, which will help to suppress any potential 'off the cliff' drop in value.
I have my Maserati up for sale at the moment, I've had some interest but no buyer. It's a rare car, it's lovely, it drives beautifully, and it certainly won't be a hardship if it doesn't sell and I keep it and enjoy it for a few more years.
I don't think anyone said they would be worthless. I said they may not necessarily be 'investments' or 'collectible' which is an entirely different thing.The thing that sets cars apart from other 'investments' is that they have a function, they can be driven and enjoyed. So if the market softens and cars aren't selling at decent levels, people will just hold their cars and enjoy them, leading to a shortage of supply onto the market, which will help to suppress any potential 'off the cliff' drop in value.
I have my Maserati up for sale at the moment, I've had some interest but no buyer. It's a rare car, it's lovely, it drives beautifully, and it certainly won't be a hardship if it doesn't sell and I keep it and enjoy it for a few more years.
cgt2 said:
I bought a manual 575 and manual 430 six years apart and at both times no one wanted them compared to the F1's.
New technology trumps old at the time of release and for a dozen years afterwards. When fuel injection arrived, nobody wanted a carburettor. If you now look at models that span both technologies, the carburettor wins the day. Classic car desirability is fed by nostalgia and nostalgia seems to always favour older technology. Does anyone know of any exceptions to this?
thecook101 said:
OK, so on topic and trying hard to steer clear of values, what do people think are wise buys in the supercar market at the moment? If a friend wanted to experience ownership of a car in this category, not new but used, what would you suggest? And this is not about 0-60 times since none of that is really relevant anymore, what would you put forward as your wise buy? My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago. Ferrari 430 or 599, Lambo Mercielago or Gallardo, AM V8 Vantage, TVR Sagaris..?
458 is the last naturally aspirated car ferrari will make, got to make it a safe bet.430 was the last car you could get a manual box in as i posted above. i saw it as a safe bet and was proven to be right.
interestingly, when i bought the car, i did it on finance but after a couple of years decided it was a keeper so elected to pay it off.
had i intended to flip it to something else i may have been more inclined to just leave it on finance. on reflection had i still had it on finance i would have been far more likely to sell it in the current climate as it would have felt like a monthly drain whereas now it really doesn't matter what it's currently worth as the only costs of ownership are running costs.....
so in short i would say something with a horse on the bonnet.but if it were me spending 150k right now i wouldn't risk putting it in a car....i'd buy 2 or 3 battered terraced houses, tart them up and then stick them with a managed estate agent which would pull you gross anywhere from 1000 to 1400 quid a month rent or 900 to 1260 net (fag packet calcs, obviously!) after management charges.....even in a flat market the value you will have added by cleaning up houses you bought cheaply because of condition means your capital value is safe.
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff