Buying wisely and cars as investments
Discussion
cgt2 said:
I don't think anyone said they would be worthless. I said they may not necessarily be 'investments' or 'collectible' which is an entirely different thing.
You replied to a comment saying "Not everything is going to have much of a "future value"" with a comment of "spot on" and highlighting those cars as examples. That's why I suggested a little perspective on the topic but I guess it comes down to peoples perception on value, or justification for owning their expensive toys.Behemoth said:
New technology trumps old at the time of release and for a dozen years afterwards. When fuel injection arrived, nobody wanted a carburettor. If you now look at models that span both technologies, the carburettor wins the day.
Classic car desirability is fed by nostalgia and nostalgia seems to always favour older technology.
Exactly this. Also, new cars are generally bought by people who want the latest and greatest in terms of technological advances. Second hand buyers are, more often thn not, the enthusiasts who go for the emotive stuff.Classic car desirability is fed by nostalgia and nostalgia seems to always favour older technology.
thecook101 said:
OK, so on topic and trying hard to steer clear of values, what do people think are wise buys in the supercar market at the moment? If a friend wanted to experience ownership of a car in this category, not new but used, what would you suggest? And this is not about 0-60 times since none of that is really relevant anymore, what would you put forward as your wise buy? My advice is to look at the best example of a well known car from ten years ago. Ferrari 430 or 599, Lambo Mercielago or Gallardo, AM V8 Vantage, TVR Sagaris..?
Assuming the £150K budget from your original post and that you seem to be thinking in terms of cars less than about 10 years old, I would go for a 458 or a 599, or you might like to add a touch of practicality to the mix and go for an FF.
Bluebottle911 said:
Assuming the £150K budget from your original post and that you seem to be thinking in terms of cars less than about 10 years old, I would go for a 458 or a 599, or you might like to add a touch of practicality to the mix and go for an FF.
Ye I wasn't actually thinking of a specific number - just a car that you could use regularly for a few years and then sell with at least a chance of not losing half your money. I agree on the 458 though, I'd love to upgrade my 430 to a 458 at some time. z4RRSchris said:
..
Aston .. - no chance
Guess you've never visited AM Works (i.e. AM Heritage centre)? Well if you had done so, I am sure you wouldn't have written that. There are many AM collectors out there from different countries that surely won't agree with your statement, too.Aston .. - no chance
..but, I bet you did your own research before giving such insightful advices, didn't you? Maybe, you could have shared a bit of that with us..
z4RRSchris said:
Camlet said:
z4RRSchris said:
It's an asset bubble, people who bought anything less than blue chip cars in top nick will get destroyed
This.When you taking me out in your F40?
Ahh values. 
Money comes and goes, time only goes.
Buy it, enjoy it, the smiles per miles will be worth more than any depreciation.
The only caveat to the above is that you shouldn't buy one if you're going to stretch yourself, or if you genuinely are going to be in constant pain thinking about residuals. Ultimately they are play things, no one needs a supercar, but having one and not being able to enjoy for fear of every mile eating into perceived value, maintenance costs, etc much worse than not having one at all.
Money comes and goes, time only goes.
Buy it, enjoy it, the smiles per miles will be worth more than any depreciation.
The only caveat to the above is that you shouldn't buy one if you're going to stretch yourself, or if you genuinely are going to be in constant pain thinking about residuals. Ultimately they are play things, no one needs a supercar, but having one and not being able to enjoy for fear of every mile eating into perceived value, maintenance costs, etc much worse than not having one at all.
Durzel said:
Ahh values.
Money comes and goes, time only goes.
Buy it, enjoy it, the smiles per miles will be worth more than any depreciation.
The only caveat to the above is that you shouldn't buy one if you're going to stretch yourself, or if you genuinely are going to be in constant pain thinking about residuals. Ultimately they are play things, no one needs a supercar, but having one and not being able to enjoy for fear of every mile eating into perceived value, maintenance costs, etc much worse than not having one at all.
very sensible advice Money comes and goes, time only goes.
Buy it, enjoy it, the smiles per miles will be worth more than any depreciation.
The only caveat to the above is that you shouldn't buy one if you're going to stretch yourself, or if you genuinely are going to be in constant pain thinking about residuals. Ultimately they are play things, no one needs a supercar, but having one and not being able to enjoy for fear of every mile eating into perceived value, maintenance costs, etc much worse than not having one at all.
FFM said:
z4RRSchris said:
..
Aston .. - no chance
Guess you've never visited AM Works (i.e. AM Heritage centre)? Well if you had done so, I am sure you wouldn't have written that. There are many AM collectors out there from different countries that surely won't agree with your statement, too.Aston .. - no chance
..but, I bet you did your own research before giving such insightful advices, didn't you? Maybe, you could have shared a bit of that with us..
Camlet said:
z4RRSchris said:
Camlet said:
z4RRSchris said:
It's an asset bubble, people who bought anything less than blue chip cars in top nick will get destroyed
This.When you taking me out in your F40?
z4RRSchris said:
FFM said:
z4RRSchris said:
..
Aston .. - no chance
Guess you've never visited AM Works (i.e. AM Heritage centre)? Well if you had done so, I am sure you wouldn't have written that. There are many AM collectors out there from different countries that surely won't agree with your statement, too.Aston .. - no chance
..but, I bet you did your own research before giving such insightful advices, didn't you? Maybe, you could have shared a bit of that with us..
z4RRSchris said:
Chill out big man. He said buy an AM v8 vantage for investment, not a db5
my comment was just to avoid any confusions other readers may have had, as you also mentioned Miura from Lamborghini as well.Surely there are a lot V8 Vantages around (probably less than F430s, though) and, I agree, not an "investment" car right now.
He should still consider it, I think, as it can be used without worrying too much about mileages (above 35k-40k mileage maybe the buyers pool is slightly reduced)
Also, V8 Vantage values have been very stable for the last 2-3 years, not hyped as the F430s, and likely to maintain similar levels in the mid-term. After the new Vantage replacement will come out, I believe the current ones will be still in demand due to the new turbo (and non-AM) engine, likely higher price than the current Vantages. I don't think is as costly to maintain compared to, say, a Ferrari or Bentley GT. Probably a bit more than a Porsche, though.
I would not buy a brand new Vantage S, even if it is in his budget
I think now is quite a risky time to be thinking about cars as investments. (Some ultra rare ones yes, but not something that is 'readily available).
Reasons below:
(1) 2nd hand performance car prices have 'bubbled' over the past number of years and that bubble could well be at bursting point.
When 2nd hand cars reach a certain value in comparison to their new list price then the value, given certain conditions of milage, condition etc. etc. , the buyer should be thinking "why buy 2nd hand?, I could easily buy new."
(2) Many performance car manufacturers are scaling up production numbers of current models to support point (1). It makes sense for the manufacturers to take new car vs 2nd had car prices in to account to have more buyers place orders with them at similar prices than have buyer send their money to the 2nd hand privateer market.
(3) The value of the pound can go either way at the moment. Depending on Brexit conditions the pound could fall or RISE. If it rises then the UK 2nd hand market will be more expensive to the rest of the world. Also if it rises, buying from the rest of the world would force down UK prices.
(4) For the majority of 2nd hand performance cars the investment has already been made. If you are to buy now then the returns for the remaining value in the car are being made by current sellers.
(5) I think in the current conditions of the economy and personal financial security it would be prudent to buy a car to use rather than to invest.
(6) Like many supply/demand models the 2nd hand performance car market will be propped up by both sides. On the demand side, if prospective buyers are not in good enough number, then a price correction will have to take place. Given that wages and the economy are on the way for a down turn there may not be many buyers in numbers to support the current prices.
People could hang on to their 'investments' but for how long? You could hold on to them for years and years hoping to make any remaining value increase on them, but you could run out of years to live
And whats the point in having lots of valuable assets when you die? (especially cars that are meant to be driven! )
(Disclaimer - personal opinion of course).
Reasons below:
(1) 2nd hand performance car prices have 'bubbled' over the past number of years and that bubble could well be at bursting point.
When 2nd hand cars reach a certain value in comparison to their new list price then the value, given certain conditions of milage, condition etc. etc. , the buyer should be thinking "why buy 2nd hand?, I could easily buy new."
(2) Many performance car manufacturers are scaling up production numbers of current models to support point (1). It makes sense for the manufacturers to take new car vs 2nd had car prices in to account to have more buyers place orders with them at similar prices than have buyer send their money to the 2nd hand privateer market.
(3) The value of the pound can go either way at the moment. Depending on Brexit conditions the pound could fall or RISE. If it rises then the UK 2nd hand market will be more expensive to the rest of the world. Also if it rises, buying from the rest of the world would force down UK prices.
(4) For the majority of 2nd hand performance cars the investment has already been made. If you are to buy now then the returns for the remaining value in the car are being made by current sellers.
(5) I think in the current conditions of the economy and personal financial security it would be prudent to buy a car to use rather than to invest.
(6) Like many supply/demand models the 2nd hand performance car market will be propped up by both sides. On the demand side, if prospective buyers are not in good enough number, then a price correction will have to take place. Given that wages and the economy are on the way for a down turn there may not be many buyers in numbers to support the current prices.
People could hang on to their 'investments' but for how long? You could hold on to them for years and years hoping to make any remaining value increase on them, but you could run out of years to live
And whats the point in having lots of valuable assets when you die? (especially cars that are meant to be driven!
)(Disclaimer - personal opinion of course).
Edited by Atomic12C on Thursday 11th August 13:42
FFM said:
my comment was just to avoid any confusions other readers may have had, as you also mentioned Miura from Lamborghini as well.
Surely there are a lot V8 Vantages around (probably less than F430s, though) and, I agree, not an "investment" car right now.
He should still consider it, I think, as it can be used without worrying too much about mileages (above 35k-40k mileage maybe the buyers pool is slightly reduced)
Also, V8 Vantage values have been very stable for the last 2-3 years, not hyped as the F430s, and likely to maintain similar levels in the mid-term. After the new Vantage replacement will come out, I believe the current ones will be still in demand due to the new turbo (and non-AM) engine, likely higher price than the current Vantages. I don't think is as costly to maintain compared to, say, a Ferrari or Bentley GT. Probably a bit more than a Porsche, though.
I would not buy a brand new Vantage S, even if it is in his budget
as far as i know there were around 7000 f430s produced during it's lifetime with about 10% of these being manuals....Surely there are a lot V8 Vantages around (probably less than F430s, though) and, I agree, not an "investment" car right now.
He should still consider it, I think, as it can be used without worrying too much about mileages (above 35k-40k mileage maybe the buyers pool is slightly reduced)
Also, V8 Vantage values have been very stable for the last 2-3 years, not hyped as the F430s, and likely to maintain similar levels in the mid-term. After the new Vantage replacement will come out, I believe the current ones will be still in demand due to the new turbo (and non-AM) engine, likely higher price than the current Vantages. I don't think is as costly to maintain compared to, say, a Ferrari or Bentley GT. Probably a bit more than a Porsche, though.
I would not buy a brand new Vantage S, even if it is in his budget
i think around 3000 v8vs have been made EVERY YEAR of production since 2005 to present, so there are way more vantages around than there are 430s....which will have helped them drop to the value they are now. for 30 odd grand they are incredible value for money.
i bought one new in 2006 for 90k and stratstones tried to rape me 3 years later with an offer of 36k as a trade in against a db9. had i bent over that car would have been out on the forecourt in 2009/2010 for high 40s. that same car today would cost high 30s....as it would have a couple of years ago.... so that tells me they've bottomed out and levelled off..f
k me, i think i might get another one!!!!I agree they are great value but I always thought a factor in this with Astons was their build quality and electrics. Even by Ferrari standards they seem particularly unreliable.
A friend turned up about a year ago with a brand new Vantage. Gave me the keys and said to take it for a spin. Long story short there was an electrical issue and the car refused to start. Quite embarrassing for my friend.
A friend turned up about a year ago with a brand new Vantage. Gave me the keys and said to take it for a spin. Long story short there was an electrical issue and the car refused to start. Quite embarrassing for my friend.
tuscaneer said:
as far as i know there were around 7000 f430s produced during it's lifetime with about 10% of these being manuals....
i think around 3000 v8vs have been made EVERY YEAR of production since 2005 to present, so there are way more vantages around than there are 430s....which will have helped them drop to the value they are now. for 30 odd grand they are incredible value for money.
I asked Aston for production numbers of V8V in 2009 (my MY) and they said 1,090 (if I recall correctly) which I believe dropped massively further down the line. But yes, from 2006 (incl a bit in '05)/07/08 there were probably in the region of 2.5k/year produced (V8V 4.3l). i think around 3000 v8vs have been made EVERY YEAR of production since 2005 to present, so there are way more vantages around than there are 430s....which will have helped them drop to the value they are now. for 30 odd grand they are incredible value for money.
So say 8k of 4.3litres being produced vs. say 2.5k of 4.7litres
So the given the current price difference between the 4.3 and the 4.7, the latter looks relatively better (drive experience, value-for-money and more reliable too).
That 7k excludes the Scuderias produced from '08?
cgt2 said:
I agree they are great value but I always thought a factor in this with Astons was their build quality and electrics. Even by Ferrari standards they seem particularly unreliable.
A friend turned up about a year ago with a brand new Vantage. Gave me the keys and said to take it for a spin. Long story short there was an electrical issue and the car refused to start. Quite embarrassing for my friend.
i may have been lucky but in the time i had a db7 the only thing that was ever wrong with it was a bit of transmission shunt..everything else was fine. same for my v8v, pretty flawless ownership actually!A friend turned up about a year ago with a brand new Vantage. Gave me the keys and said to take it for a spin. Long story short there was an electrical issue and the car refused to start. Quite embarrassing for my friend.
FFM said:
I asked Aston for production numbers of V8V in 2009 (my MY) and they said 1,090 (if I recall correctly) which I believe dropped massively further down the line. But yes, from 2006 (incl a bit in '05)/07/08 there were probably in the region of 2.5k/year produced (V8V 4.3l).
So say 8k of 4.3litres being produced vs. say 2.5k of 4.7litres
So the given the current price difference between the 4.3 and the 4.7, the latter looks relatively better (drive experience, value-for-money and more reliable too).
That 7k excludes the Scuderias produced from '08?
sorry pal, you're quite right, i didn't factor in scuds.....i'm surprised at those vantage numbers...WAY lower than i had figured. i didn't realize production dropped off so rapidly.So say 8k of 4.3litres being produced vs. say 2.5k of 4.7litres
So the given the current price difference between the 4.3 and the 4.7, the latter looks relatively better (drive experience, value-for-money and more reliable too).
That 7k excludes the Scuderias produced from '08?
my only complaint with mine was a lack of oomph (4.3).....i'd like to try a 4.7. i can feel i'm getting sucked back in here!!
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