The LP640: Last real Lamborghini?

The LP640: Last real Lamborghini?

Author
Discussion

HeavySoul

Original Poster:

9,149 posts

218 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
I have no doubt this subject has been covered before in this exotic corner of PH but I have just been reading the latest issue of Car magazine which has a brief test drive of the Murcielago LP640 and an article by Stephen Bayley entitled 'Why the cool hand of Audi will crush the spirit of Lamborghini' and just wondered what real people think.

A few choice extracts:

Stephen Bayley said:
The Murcielago is the last old Lamborghini. The Audi R8 is the first new one. Lamborghini has been saved, but will be destroyed. Under German supervision, Lamborghini makes 'better' cars. It will be diverted from the magnificent catastrophes that have so enlivened its history.....

Chris Chilton said:
Of course Audi's influence is already evident in the LP640, and it's a better car for it. But, it's like the problem child that can't be tamed. It still has the capacity to bring the deviant out in all of us. This could be the last Lamborghini to do this - the last real Lamborghini


Obviously with any business take over there is a two way transfer of ideas, philosophies and technologies. So if all the faults and disasters are ironed out of future Lamborghini models, will this really dilute the end product?

Does the potential for unreliability really form a large part of the core character of a Lamborghini or is this just a first chapter of heritage on which to build on for the future? Furthermore is there some kind of perverse 'thrill' in owning a car which, if it does go wrong, is likely to cost large amount of money to fix. Does this give ownership/possession that extra edge every time you go for a drive? Without this will something really be lost? By importing efficiency, are they exporting at least some of the character?

Stephen Bayley said:
What has gone is purpose and intent. With infinite slowness and enlarging melancholy, Lamborghini will fade. That this is inevitable does not make it less elegiac.

Now I know from reading posts on here about factory visits that there is certainly no loss of purpose at the factory and within the skilled workers there. Arguably the intent behind the first Lamborghini was to better Mr. Ferrari in his attempts at sports car manufacture. The demise of the personal rivalry to profit margin rivalry perhaps changes the intent of the business - does this mean Lamborghini becomes just another brand in the portfolio (albeit a loud one!)?

Stephen Bayley said:
...Reckless, bizarre, extreme, perverse, but never boring, the Lamborghini story is coming to an end.

Sounds like an articulate headline grabber, and certainly Lamborghini as a brand is far from over as I am sure most of you would agree. But is there a certain level of truth behind their consensus? Is the Murcielago, and the LP640 in particular, really the last authentic and true Lamborghini?

GALLARDOGUY

8,160 posts

218 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
i read the same article but while i understand the points he's making i dont think anyone can pass judgement until lamborghini/audi replace the LP640 with the next generation clean sheet design for their flagship car.

i personally think the italian spirit will always outweight the german efficency when it comes to the marque.

Jonny5

3,526 posts

273 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all

The last real lamborghini was the Diablo 6.0

danger mouse

3,828 posts

260 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
Jonny5 said:

The last real lamborghini was the Diablo 6.0

Nah.. as it said in CAR this month it was the Contach: The Diablo and the Murcielago were derived from it and the Diablo was developed under Chrysler.

Having seen underneath both the Gallardo and Murcielago, side by side, the Murc is very much still a Lambo' under the skin where as the Gallardo is an Audi.

The L640 therefore could be considered the closest thing to a "real Lamboghini" availible for sale new today if you want to look at it that way.

Edited by danger mouse on Thursday 9th November 20:55

HeavySoul

Original Poster:

9,149 posts

218 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
GALLARDOGUY said:
i read the same article but while i understand the points he's making i dont think anyone can pass judgement until lamborghini/audi replace the LP640 with the next generation clean sheet design for their flagship car.

i personally think the italian spirit will always outweight the german efficency when it comes to the marque.


This is certainly true, he is obviously speculating, but I am interested in the points raised. In my opinion Lamborghini has always been the ultimate supercar marque over certain other Italian breeds - purely because of it's outrageous designs and approaches which make it a truely unique marque.

Really interested in what owners feel about their Lamborghinis, hertitage, passion and brand loyalty have a seemingly large part in the decision to invest in such cars, so if this core point is shifting then how will this affect people views on Lamborghini. The article just fired me up into thinking about these things and seemed like the appropriate place to discuss it without talking to myself laugh

Jonny5

3,526 posts

273 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
danger mouse said:
Jonny5 said:

The last real lamborghini was the Diablo 6.0

Nah.. as it said in CAR this month it was the Contach: The Diablo and the Murcielago were derived from it and the Diablo was developed under Chrysler.

Having seen underneath both the Gallardo and Murcielago, side by side, the Murc is very much still a Lambo' under the skin where as the Gallardo is an Audi.

The L640 therefore could be considered the closest thing to a "real Lamboghini" availible for sale new today if you want to look at it that way.


I could put money on there being no Chrysler parts on my car ! Have a look inside a murcie apart from all the switch gear take a look under the ashtray

In 1974 when the Countach was introduced Lamborghini was under the ownership of swiss financier Georges-Henri Rossetti and his friend René Leimer before the company went into bankruptcy in 1977 - thus you could argue the last *real* Ferruccio era lambo was the Urraco



Edited by Jonny5 on Thursday 9th November 21:24

HeavySoul

Original Poster:

9,149 posts

218 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
Jonny5 said:

The last real lamborghini was the Diablo 6.0


Ignoring the bias ()I tend to agred with Jonny here.

danger mouse said:

Nah.. as it said in CAR this month it was the Contach: The Diablo and the Murcielago were derived from it and the Diablo was developed under Chrysler.

Having seen underneath both the Gallardo and Murcielago, side by side, the Murc is very much still a Lambo' under the skin where as the Gallardo is an Audi.

The L640 therefore could be considered the closest thing to a "real Lamboghini" availible for sale new today if you want to look at it that way.


Jonny5 said:

In 1974 when the Countach was introduced Lamborghini was under the ownership of swiss financier Georges-Henri Rossetti and his friend René Leimer before the company went into bankruptcy in 1977 - thus you could argue the last *real* Ferruccio era lambo was the Urraco


Urraco may have been the last Ferruccio era Lamborghini, but do you think the 'spirit' of this era is carried through the Countach, Diablo and Murcielago, Jonny?

I love the complete tight package of the Gallardo but it has never screamed 'Lambo' at me. This may be because it was not designed to have such unique presence like a purple Diablo but then that is not what I would classify as Lamborghini style.

Trouble being is my teenage poster car was a black LP5000 QV and the Cannonball Run was my favourite film so 'my' Lamborghini concept will always originate from there

Edited by HeavySoul on Thursday 9th November 21:55

urraco

62 posts

211 months

Thursday 9th November 2006
quotequote all
The marque was established in order to build front-engined GT's. So my nomination for 'the last proper Lamborghini' is the ESPADA

ds

Edited by urraco on Thursday 9th November 22:32

gt2man-2

1,042 posts

254 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
I wonder if people will consider the LP640 replacement the "last real Lamborghini" when that is superceded..

Jonny5

3,526 posts

273 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
gt2man-2 said:
I wonder if people will consider the LP640 replacement the "last real Lamborghini" when that is superceded..


Hi David wavey Lp640 does come across as a bit of a band-aid until the new murcie in 08/09

HeavySoul

Original Poster:

9,149 posts

218 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
gt2man-2 said:
I wonder if people will consider the LP640 replacement the "last real Lamborghini" when that is superceded..


I am probably wrong on this but the replacement for the Murcielago will be the first car fully designed under Audis influence will it not? Gallardo and Murcielago were both conceived before the Audi purchase.

Mr_C

2,441 posts

228 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
I'd like to see them produce a really powerful, possibly RWD, Gallardo. Sort of give it the Challenge Stradale/Porsche GT2 treatment.

I think they'd sell like hot cakes.

Scary cars have a certain appeal.

edited cos my dyslexic keyboard couldn't spell 'challenge'.

Edited by Mr_C on Friday 10th November 09:39

dealmaker

2,215 posts

253 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
Mr_C said:
I'd like to see them produce a really powerful, possibly RWD, Gallardo. Sort of give it the Cahllenge Stradale/Porsche GT2 treatment.

I think they'd sell like hot cakes.

Scary cars have a certain appeal.


yeah,

I'd like to see a Murcie in the same vein, a sort of LP640SV !!

Rear wheel drive, bit more power, bit lighter, fewer toys, and a selectable diff/traction control like the 430 - now THAT would sell like hot cakes (and they'd probably make more profit per unit to boot!)

GALLARDOGUY

8,160 posts

218 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
dealmaker said:
Mr_C said:
I'd like to see them produce a really powerful, possibly RWD, Gallardo. Sort of give it the Cahllenge Stradale/Porsche GT2 treatment.

I think they'd sell like hot cakes.

Scary cars have a certain appeal.


yeah,

I'd like to see a Murcie in the same vein, a sort of LP640SV !!

Rear wheel drive, bit more power, bit lighter, fewer toys, and a selectable diff/traction control like the 430 - now THAT would sell like hot cakes (and they'd probably make more profit per unit to boot!)



ah but theres the rub...if lamborghini were independent (or as independent as you can be these days) a la ferrari, then perhaps we would have already seen the lightweight 2 wheel drive models, sv's etc etc.

perhaps its the audi (nice predictable 4 wheel drive cars) influence that is stifling such creativity. think how many variants there were of the diablo before audi took the reins! but of course the flipside is that without audi we wouldnt have the murci or gallardo in the first place.

the marque is crying out for challenge stradale competitor from the gallardo range & a 2 wheel drive, light weight carrera GT challengner from the murci/LP640 range.

my guess (and hope) is that we will see both as the models move towards the end of their production runs to boost sales before their replacements are announced.

Mr_C

2,441 posts

228 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
They could keep the 4wd providing they made the car handle sharper (maybe a bigger split on the diff to 80/20 Rear/Front), faster turn in and lots more power! Give the ten pot more power and more revs...

as for a Murcié even more extreme than an LP640... you bunch of nutters.

GALLARDOGUY

8,160 posts

218 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
Mr_C said:
They could keep the 4wd providing they made the car handle sharper (maybe a bigger split on the diff to 80/20 Rear/Front), faster turn in and lots more power! Give the ten pot more power and more revs...

as for a Murcié even more extreme than an LP640... you bunch of nutters.


its the weight saving that would be acheived by losing the 4 wheel drive thats needed rather than redistribution of the front/rear bias. this would also aid turn in.

now that the murci has 631bhp, give the gallardo sv between 550/570 bhp, thinner glass, stripped cabin, carbon brakes, a more ground effect aero package & it would be a weapon on road & track.

danger mouse

3,828 posts

260 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
Jonny5 said:
In 1974 when the Countach was introduced Lamborghini was under the ownership of swiss financier Georges-Henri Rossetti and his friend René Leimer before the company went into bankruptcy in 1977 - thus you could argue the last *real* Ferruccio era lambo was the Urraco


That kind of proves my point then that it depends on your subjective opinion of what consistutes "real" in terms of "Lamborghini":

- the final car that was penned by the man himself (or at least someone with the same name)
...or...
- the last one developed while the company was free from badge engineering or extraninious corporate interference to dilute the organisation's original ethos?


Lambo's at the start mission statement was a simple two fingers (or probably a single thumb in the Latin idium) up to Enzo, and the Gallardo still does that admirably. So doesn't that make it a realLamborghini?


By the same rationale, what was the last real Ferrari, Bugatti or, dare I say it, TVR?paperbag

dealmaker

2,215 posts

253 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
danger mouse said:
By the same rationale, what was the last real Ferrari, Bugatti or, dare I say it, TVR?paperbag


Let's be serious for a moment a REAL TVR??.....thery're all kit cars dontcha know!

danger mouse

3,828 posts

260 months

Friday 10th November 2006
quotequote all
dealmaker said:
Let's be serious for a moment a REAL TVR??.....thery're all kit cars dontcha know!

Doesn't mean they have no ethos driving their design... anyway you were all talking about Lamborghini not TVR, I'll put this thread down now. sorry.


hang on where's the :fishedin: smiley

gt2man-2

1,042 posts

254 months

Saturday 11th November 2006
quotequote all
HeavySoul said:
I am probably wrong on this but the replacement for the Murcielago will be the first car fully designed under Audis influence will it not? Gallardo and Murcielago were both conceived before the Audi purchase.

I guess the reason for my comment was because when the Murcielago was unveiled, the Lambo fans cried into their beer, lamenting the passing of the Diablo, the car they feld was the last real Lamborghini.. and the same when the LP640 is unveiled, and so on..