Ford Focus MOT Emissions failure
Discussion
Final Update on the Ford Focus.
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
No signs of overheating, no water usage up to then, but a diagnostic check using the odometer button showed normal temps and the car restarted and drove home with check light on. Code reader once at home showed no codes and I cancelled engine check light.
Drove to Grantham and it broke down 4 times on the way there and 12 times on the way back. I had removed the thermostat on route there ( suspecting stat stuck in closed position). It wasn't a stuck stat. Got it home. The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
Got it to go into "limp mode" whilst on the drive and thought that it could either be head gasket or an air lock. I had fitted a new water pump 4000 miles previously. No Fault codes still.
I bought a block test kit. No gases present in water whilst running engine.
Was it a sensor fault? Temperature senders are a problem on this engine as they are a direct bolt in fit into the metal of the head and often go wrong, so I bought a new sender.
Tried to open bonnet to fit sender. Bonnet lock ( opens using ignition key behind grille badge) now completely inoperative, despite being fine the previous day.
At this point after all the crap this car had put me through I admit I started kicking the front of the car , only to have the Mrs come out after hearing all the commotion, swearing etc.
"I dont blame you" she said.
I then had to rip off most of the front of car to get at the lock, which is encased in metal and plastic.
Lock is now removed. A screwdriver now opens the lock efficiently.
Fit the sender. It still goes into limp mode.
Well that leaves the ECU. So I had that checked FOC and it was perfect.
Carry out second block test. Still no gases in water.
Empty and Vacuum fill the cooling system. Car drives for 70 miles without any problem, "I've cracked it thinks I" then the car goes into limp mode again.
Remove water pump and check it, metal impellor, totally perfect and its the correct model.
Refit water pump, vacuum fill the system etc etc and the bloody thing still goes into limp mode on the drive.
Remove the fabled problematic heater matrix ( as mentioned on Forums) , test and refit. Vacuum fill again. It goes into limp mode on the drive.
Its not the stat, its not the sender, its not the pump, its not got a leak in either radiator or heater, its been vacuum filled, it must, must be a Head Gasket problem.
Carry out another Block Test, the third.
I got to get a panel of independent people ( relatives round for Sunday Lunch) to view the liquid and two out of five discerned the slightest trace of green in the blue liquid. I couldn't see it myself. Neither could the others.
So, off comes the head, the head and gasket look perfect. I have learnt that this car does not play by the rules so I send the head off for the very slightest skimming anyway, just to get the very best sealing surface possible. The bores btw on this 100k plus engine still had the honing marks.
Slap on the new gasket, the refreshed head and using new bolts torque the beggar down.
After over 100 miles the engine hasn't missed a beat. I'm sure it was just lulling me into a false sense of security. So I gave it a treat and a valet.
And today I sold the fecking heap of crap.
To a taxi driver who has run his last Focus to over 300k. Thatll teach it.
Its not often I do a little jig of happiness in the kitchen.
Cheers,
Tony
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
No signs of overheating, no water usage up to then, but a diagnostic check using the odometer button showed normal temps and the car restarted and drove home with check light on. Code reader once at home showed no codes and I cancelled engine check light.
Drove to Grantham and it broke down 4 times on the way there and 12 times on the way back. I had removed the thermostat on route there ( suspecting stat stuck in closed position). It wasn't a stuck stat. Got it home. The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
Got it to go into "limp mode" whilst on the drive and thought that it could either be head gasket or an air lock. I had fitted a new water pump 4000 miles previously. No Fault codes still.
I bought a block test kit. No gases present in water whilst running engine.
Was it a sensor fault? Temperature senders are a problem on this engine as they are a direct bolt in fit into the metal of the head and often go wrong, so I bought a new sender.
Tried to open bonnet to fit sender. Bonnet lock ( opens using ignition key behind grille badge) now completely inoperative, despite being fine the previous day.
At this point after all the crap this car had put me through I admit I started kicking the front of the car , only to have the Mrs come out after hearing all the commotion, swearing etc.
"I dont blame you" she said.
I then had to rip off most of the front of car to get at the lock, which is encased in metal and plastic.
Lock is now removed. A screwdriver now opens the lock efficiently.
Fit the sender. It still goes into limp mode.
Well that leaves the ECU. So I had that checked FOC and it was perfect.
Carry out second block test. Still no gases in water.
Empty and Vacuum fill the cooling system. Car drives for 70 miles without any problem, "I've cracked it thinks I" then the car goes into limp mode again.
Remove water pump and check it, metal impellor, totally perfect and its the correct model.
Refit water pump, vacuum fill the system etc etc and the bloody thing still goes into limp mode on the drive.
Remove the fabled problematic heater matrix ( as mentioned on Forums) , test and refit. Vacuum fill again. It goes into limp mode on the drive.
Its not the stat, its not the sender, its not the pump, its not got a leak in either radiator or heater, its been vacuum filled, it must, must be a Head Gasket problem.
Carry out another Block Test, the third.
I got to get a panel of independent people ( relatives round for Sunday Lunch) to view the liquid and two out of five discerned the slightest trace of green in the blue liquid. I couldn't see it myself. Neither could the others.
So, off comes the head, the head and gasket look perfect. I have learnt that this car does not play by the rules so I send the head off for the very slightest skimming anyway, just to get the very best sealing surface possible. The bores btw on this 100k plus engine still had the honing marks.
Slap on the new gasket, the refreshed head and using new bolts torque the beggar down.
After over 100 miles the engine hasn't missed a beat. I'm sure it was just lulling me into a false sense of security. So I gave it a treat and a valet.
And today I sold the fecking heap of crap.
To a taxi driver who has run his last Focus to over 300k. Thatll teach it.
Its not often I do a little jig of happiness in the kitchen.
Cheers,
Tony
stevieturbo said:
Let me get this right.
The car actually stopped running....and you started changing temp sensor, cooling system, head gasket...etc etc ?
That seems a bit mental ?
Why not try and establish why it stopped first ?
No you have got it wrong.The car actually stopped running....and you started changing temp sensor, cooling system, head gasket...etc etc ?
That seems a bit mental ?
Why not try and establish why it stopped first ?
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout, it kept on going into limp mode as a result of a very slight head gasket leak which was pressurising the head/ cooling system, displacing water and causing a hot spot underneath the sensor.
Had the temperature sensor been in the water circuit and not the head itself, the problem would probably have gone unnoticed until the hg blew in a bigger way.
I was also pointing out that block tests are not infallible and can be difficult to interpret if the HG has not suffered a bad failure.
BTW I forgot to add in the original post that I had carried out a compression test and a leakdown test and neither showed a HG problem so I now believe the leak only opened up when the engine was hot.
Cheers,
Tony
Each to their own. I guess what you're describing is plausible, bit wouldnt be convinced..
But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
Tony427 said:
No you have got it wrong.
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
Tony427 said:
Final Update on the Ford Focus.
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Sorry, guess I misunderstood that last comment ? It suggests to me the engine stopped ?After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Tony427 said:
The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
And again. If the ecu/engine thinks it is overheating due to a sensor reading. Turning the engine off/on for a split second isnt really going to change that reading. So when you turn it back on, the same fault or limp mode should activate. No way should it take another 17 miles.I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
stevieturbo said:
Each to their own. I guess what you're describing is plausible, bit wouldnt be convinced..
But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
The temperature the guage was showing was middle of the dial, then would shoot up into the red in one or two seconds and then limp mode would start ( shutting down two cylinders) and first speed the engiine cooling fan sometimes wouldn't even get the opportunity to switch on, never mind the second high speed mode, it happens so quickly. The digital diagnostic dash readout ( via the odometer button) would show a slight build up to the mid eighties and then it would climb very rapidly to 122 at max when the engine would shut down. But a sniffer test is very reliable even for minor leaks. Coloured dye test perhaps a little more vague, but a blown gasket will usually show a distinct colour change. As described, a minor colour change even on a good setup isnt uncommon and can be misleading.. The sniffer is more reliable than either a leakdown or compression test as far as diagnosing a head gasket to waterway leak.
or either pressure test the cooling system and monitor pressure drop, or manually pressurise the cylinder and monitor cooling system for any air ingress.
Either way, seems the problems are finally over.
Tony427 said:
No you have got it wrong.
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
I really do wish you would try and read posts before you answer them. But that would mean you couldn't be condescending wouldn't it?
If you had read the post you would have realised that the car was running throughout
Tony427 said:
Final Update on the Ford Focus.
After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Sorry, guess I misunderstood that last comment ? It suggests to me the engine stopped ?After passing the MOT I taxed and started using the car. Two weeks later the "major engine problem" light came on and car went into limp mode ( to prevent overheating) and then stopped totally.
Tony427 said:
The car would go into limp mode at 70 mph , I could turn dip the clutch, turn the engine off and back on again without stopping and the car would drive perfectly again, once for 17 miles.
And again. If the ecu/engine thinks it is overheating due to a sensor reading. Turning the engine off/on for a split second isnt really going to change that reading. So when you turn it back on, the same fault or limp mode should activate. No way should it take another 17 miles.I'm not saying the HG wasnt at fault, but the scenario you describe doesnt make sense to me.
What temperature was the sensor seeing/sending during all these incidents ? And was the heater/blower working and blowing hot air throughout ?
All the time to heater was working fine, blowing hot air if required.
Indeed I could start the car and warm it up, then turn on the air conditioning which automatically started the high speed fan thereby overcooling the radiator, which made the bottom hose quite cold, and the top hose lukewarm, and yet the digital readout would climb to 122 degrees centigrade and the engine would be put into limp mode.
There's clips on youtube of Focuses being driven with rapidly fluctuating temperature guages which are put down to faulty dashboards, ( There was a recall and Ford still give support charging just over £100 for a new instrument set) and can be rectified by removing the instrument binnacle and giving the printed circuit board a good clean with electrical contact cleaner. I whipped the dash out , gave it a minute inspection under magnification however there were no visible problems so gave it a good clean with a fine brush and contact cleaner and reinstalled it.
The extremely rapid rise in both the analogue readout through the guage and the matching digital readout through the onboard diagnostics indicated to me that either the sensor was faulty or there was a localised hot spot under the metal into which the temperature sensor was bolted. Hence the gamble on the £9 sensor which , on the forums, seems to be prone to failure.
As that didn't cure the problem the only option seemed to be a faulty water pump, not circulating the coolant , a hg problem or an air lock.
At no time during all this did the car ever lose any water, boil over or show any signs of overheating apart from the dreaded dash lights and limp mode.
Still all over now.
Given all the work and stuff I've done on the car it will probably reward the new owner with 000's of miles of cheap trouble free motoring.
Cheers,
Tony
I was under the understanding that the rad fan is controlled by the ECU so that being the case when the temp shoots up then the rad fan should be functioning/on, if that is not the case it can only be the instrument cluster thats indicating (incorrectly overheating) as this also receives its signal via the ECU although I stand to corrected as i have not experienced this fault on a Focus to date.
Sardonicus said:
I was under the understanding that the rad fan is controlled by the ECU so that being the case when the temp shoots up then the rad fan should be functioning/on, if that is not the case it can only be the instrument cluster thats indicating (incorrectly overheating) as this also receives its signal via the ECU although I stand to corrected as i have not experienced this fault on a Focus to date.
Yep, the ECU controls the rad fan and also tells the instrument cluster what temp to show on the guage. However the guage is not linear and shows middle position whether the real digital temp is 85 to 100 degrees celcius.In my Focus the temp could rise from 85 to 122 in less than 10 seconds, the ECU would start up the initial low speed fan and then as the temperature continued to climb immediately bring in the higher speed fan ( same fan but two different speeds). However this was always ineffective as the digital diagnostic temperature always hit the 122 degree trigger and the ECU then instigated the limp mode.
The top hose at this time could still be only warm to the touch.....with no thermostat in the system.
In all effects a cold radiator but with max fan cooling being applied by the ECU which thinks the engine is overheating because the sensor is telling it that the temperature in the metal of the cylinder head in the sensors location is 122 degrees celcius. Which it probably was.
The instrument cluster at this point is in catch up mode, the ECU has put the engine into limp mode just as the needle hits the red zone on the guage.
Great fun eh.
I've got a big lazy Volvo now, and a Lexus LS400, and a Polo for the daughter, and a Skoda for the Mrs and I'm building a second Lexus engined Cobra replica in my garage, my first is in my mates garage in Grantham.
My first car was a Mk 1 Cortina at 17 , my car at University was a Mk3 Cortina, I had a 2.5 litre V6 Mondeo in my 30's, I loved them all.
I've had over 40 cars in my life so far. I've rebuilt more engines for me, friends and family than I care to remember. I've rebuilt Classic Jags and built 4 kitcars. I spent 18 months just wiring in the the engine and gearbox computers in my first BMW engined Cobra ffs.
And I can honestly say I have never, ever had a car that has given me as much trouble and grief as the Ford Focus that has been the bane of my life for the last 12 months.
I am ecstatic to be rid of the thing.
I will never ever buy another Ford. But thats just my opinion. Other opinions may vary. ( But then again I also had a Ford era Jag S type that I called my "clowns car" as a result of its build quality ie it too seemed to be built out of cheese, by accountants.)
Cheers,
Tony
I don't know the Focus engine but could it be to do with exhaust getting into the inlet? LPG wouldn't spot that one.
A friend recently had to spend a packet to get his Vauxhall through its MOT. It was an 1800 cc Vectra. Faults were running lean and excessive oxides of nitrogen.
The Lambda sensors were both replaced to no avail! (about £80 to £90 each or £120 each at a Main Dealer) A drive-by-wire expert (not me) was called in but he was also beaten. There were no fault codes showing. The expert consulted the Internet later and it was discovered that the Mass Air Flow sensor was the most likely culprit. A new MAF sensor was purchased at a cost of £93 and the car then passed!
The MAF sensor is a hot wire and IMHO it either oxidises or more likely atmospheric dust burns onto it. The dust then insulates the wire somewhat so to get the same amount of cooling onto the wire more air is needed. This makes the engine run lean and burn hotter. The hotter burning then causes oxides of nitrogen and an MOT failure. About £275 in parts was expended just to reduce the NO2 emissions from a fraction of one percent to a smaller fraction of one percent! Its getting quite ridiculous as the Fixation of Nitrogen which also occurs during electrical storms is good for the garden!
I had to tow a friend home years ago as his Ford Fiesta would not cross a hump-backed bridge. He could reverse to my house OK but the bridge defeated the car every time as did a moderately steep hill. Ignition was OK and so to my surprise was the fuel as he is usually running on empty. Just to make sure a lawn mower tank was rigged-up on a roof bar but this was no help. It seemed like it was a faulty capacitor on the points but it was not this either. Of course the car being black didn't help and neither did the dark moonless night. Incredible fault but very simple to fix.
I wonder if the charging of the Focus alternator in conjunction with dodgy earths affects the fast idle?
On the Siesta the fault was a wire that had broken away from the ignition coil ballast resistor. When the car was travelling in reverse the wire rested on paint. When the car was pulling hard the power unit moved and the wire shorted-out on shiny pre-rubbed metal! Fix or repair daily!
A friend recently had to spend a packet to get his Vauxhall through its MOT. It was an 1800 cc Vectra. Faults were running lean and excessive oxides of nitrogen.
The Lambda sensors were both replaced to no avail! (about £80 to £90 each or £120 each at a Main Dealer) A drive-by-wire expert (not me) was called in but he was also beaten. There were no fault codes showing. The expert consulted the Internet later and it was discovered that the Mass Air Flow sensor was the most likely culprit. A new MAF sensor was purchased at a cost of £93 and the car then passed!
The MAF sensor is a hot wire and IMHO it either oxidises or more likely atmospheric dust burns onto it. The dust then insulates the wire somewhat so to get the same amount of cooling onto the wire more air is needed. This makes the engine run lean and burn hotter. The hotter burning then causes oxides of nitrogen and an MOT failure. About £275 in parts was expended just to reduce the NO2 emissions from a fraction of one percent to a smaller fraction of one percent! Its getting quite ridiculous as the Fixation of Nitrogen which also occurs during electrical storms is good for the garden!
I had to tow a friend home years ago as his Ford Fiesta would not cross a hump-backed bridge. He could reverse to my house OK but the bridge defeated the car every time as did a moderately steep hill. Ignition was OK and so to my surprise was the fuel as he is usually running on empty. Just to make sure a lawn mower tank was rigged-up on a roof bar but this was no help. It seemed like it was a faulty capacitor on the points but it was not this either. Of course the car being black didn't help and neither did the dark moonless night. Incredible fault but very simple to fix.
I wonder if the charging of the Focus alternator in conjunction with dodgy earths affects the fast idle?
On the Siesta the fault was a wire that had broken away from the ignition coil ballast resistor. When the car was travelling in reverse the wire rested on paint. When the car was pulling hard the power unit moved and the wire shorted-out on shiny pre-rubbed metal! Fix or repair daily!
Sardonicus said:
As you said your rid now, you certainly had your work cut out with the Ford, all the best with the Lexus/Cobra build 
. LS V8 i take it ? proper gem of an engine 
Yep LS400 V8. A lovely piece of kit. . LS V8 i take it ? proper gem of an engine The first Lexus engined Cobra should pass 10,000 trouble free miles this summer (can't count a sticking Jag caliper), the second Lexus Cobra, sitting not 4 feet from me atm, hopefully will be finished in 12 months ready for the Le Mans Classic and I have a spare engine and box being kept in tip top condition by the simple expedient of being run around in a daily snotter by a mate.
We purchased a LS400 for £300 5 years ago with approx 110k on it iirc, originally as an engine and gearbox donor, but it was too good to break.
So after sitting in a car dealers yard unstarted for two years, we handed over the readies, I thraped it home playing with its cruise control, 16 speaker stereo and all the other leccy gizmos in the cabin, and so far in its life with us its had one oil change ( must really do another one it must be due although it never uses any oil) , one starter motor rebuilt, three road springs, a cam belt with tensioner, a set of discs, a secondhand battery, an alternator rectifier and its still going strong on daily snotter, car trailer and caravan towing duties.
The only advisory on the MOT's in all those 5 years was for potentially corroded brake lines which was solved by wire wool and a bit of grease.
It's had the indignity of being Shelby striped for Le Mans but has since had a bonnet respray and one application of Autoglym polish.
It will still pull all the way up to 150mph. ( Where legal, France is deristricted isn't it?)
A proper car and a proper engine.
Cheers,
Tony
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