Oil advice and recommendations here!
Discussion
Guy,
You sound like the man who can help me choose the best oil to use in my honda integra type R. My local Honda service centre recommend magnetex but i have read bad things about synthetic oils. I would appreciate any advice.
Make: Honda
Model: DC2 Integra Type R (UK)
Engine: 1.8 VTEC
Year: 1999
Currently using Castrol Magnetex. 10/40?
You sound like the man who can help me choose the best oil to use in my honda integra type R. My local Honda service centre recommend magnetex but i have read bad things about synthetic oils. I would appreciate any advice.
Make: Honda
Model: DC2 Integra Type R (UK)
Engine: 1.8 VTEC
Year: 1999
Currently using Castrol Magnetex. 10/40?
mlvernon said:
Guy,
You sound like the man who can help me choose the best oil to use in my honda integra type R. My local Honda service centre recommend magnetex but i have read bad things about synthetic oils. I would appreciate any advice.
Make: Honda
Model: DC2 Integra Type R (UK)
Engine: 1.8 VTEC
Year: 1999
Currently using Castrol Magnetex. 10/40?
The stock recomendation for the Integra type R is for a 10w-40 semi synthetic or a 5w-40 fully synthetic.
I would personally go for a fully synthetic. Do not be put off by the myths of fully synthetic oil as most of them are untrue.
The Myths regarding Synthetic Oils
The benefits of Synthetic motor oils have been much debated over the last 10 years and misinformation is rife, particularly on the internet.
There are many so-called experts out there who should know better but hopefully this post will shed some light on some of the most common myths.
What are Synthetic Oils?
Synthetic Oils are fuel efficient, more fluid and resistant to thermal breakdown, they are constructed in laboratories using basestocks and special additive packages. They are specially formulated to meet and perform to standards set by API and ACEA as required by OEM’s.
Synthetic motor oils damage seals.
This is untrue. Why would lubricant manufacturers build products that are
incompatible with seals. The composition of seals present problems that all types of oils must overcome.
At the end of the day, it is the additive pack in the oil that counts. Additives are added control the swelling, shrinking and hardening of seals.
Synthetics are too thin.
This is untrue. In order for an oil to be classified in any SAE grade (0W-40, 5w-40,10W-40 etc) it has to meet guidelines with regard to viscosity or thickness.
For example, any oil with a viscosity of 10W-40 has to operate at -25 degrees centigrade and 100 degrees centigrade to pass these tests or it cannot be rated as a 10W-40.
Synthetics mean higher oil usage.
This is untrue. Synthetic motor oils are intended for use in mechanically sound engines, that don't leak oil. In these engines oil consumption will actually be lower because of the lower volatility of Synthetics. They also have better sealing capabilities between piston rings and cylinder walls. Synthetics also have better oxidation stability. (They resist reacting with oxygen at high temperatures)
Synthetic Oils are not compatible with other oils.
This is untrue. The synthesized hydrocarbons, polyalphaolefins, diesters and other materials from high quality basestocks are fully compatible with other oils.
It is best to stick to the same oil for topping up that you have in the engine. It is best not to mix oils, as additives are blended for specific oils. When different oils are mixed additive pack balances can be upset so for the best performance, it’s better not to mix them.
Synthetic Oils produce sludge.
This is untrue. It is a fact that they are more sludge resistant than other oils as they are better at resisting high temperatures and oxidation. Because Synthetic oils have higher flash points, they withstand evaporation better leaving less deposits.
Synthetic oils can't be used with catalytic converters.
This is untrue. There is no difference between synthetic and other oils with regards to the components. Neither will damage catalytic converters.
Synthetic oils can void warranties.
This is untrue. No major manufacturers specifically ban the use of synthetic
oils. More and more new performance cars are factory filled with Synthetic oils.
Vehicle warranties are based upon the use of oils meeting specific API Service
Classifications and recommended viscosities.
Synthetic oils will last forever.
This is untrue. There are some people that believe that synthetic basestocks themselves can be used forever. However, it is a well known fact that eventually the additives will break down and cause the oil to degrade. The additives in the oil are effectively “used up” by moisture, fuel dilution and acids. Regularly topping up the oil will help but sensible oil change periods are recommended.
Synthetic oils will protect an engine for far longer periods than non-synthetics.
Synthetic oils are too expensive.
This is untrue. It has been proven through testing that Synthetic oils do have longer drain periods and provide better fuel economy. Add this to reduced engine wear and better reliability then do the maths. They are in reality better value for money than other oils.
The Castrol Magnatec is only a multigrade mineral oil and you could do much better for your engine than that. I would suggest a true synthetic (no petrolium base stock) over a hydrocracked mineral oil (petrolium base stock).
Consider Mobil, Castrol, Silkolene, Motul, Redline, Total all do true synthetics of good quality.
If you have any questions please ask.
Guy.
Guy, just a query about the viscosty of oil (yawn, i know, but just a little info i need to clear up). It's a long one so my questions are in bold.
The second number is an indication of viscosity at 100C. However, all oils thin down a lot as they get hot, and the difference between grades at high temp seems to be very small. My query is that you have said that a 60 will be too thick for most applications, and to go for a 50 instead.
However, a 50 grade according to my info falls within the limits of 16.3 - 21.9 cSt, and a 60 grade within 21.9 - 26.1. Is that really a significant difference?
It's just that the viscosity measurement at 40C seems to be typically around the 90 cSt mark (give or take), and if it's essentially a log relationship as i believe it is, then the viscosity at 0C can be over 300 - 400 cSt. It just seems that the variation of viscosity between grades is much less important than the variation of viscosity with varying temperature.
As the viscosity of any oil is so much thinner at operating temperature than start-up temperature, is there really any disadvantage of using a thin W grade oil - a 0W is still going to be a lot thicker at ambient temperature than any oil, even a 60, would be at operating temperature.
cheers
skinny
The second number is an indication of viscosity at 100C. However, all oils thin down a lot as they get hot, and the difference between grades at high temp seems to be very small. My query is that you have said that a 60 will be too thick for most applications, and to go for a 50 instead.
However, a 50 grade according to my info falls within the limits of 16.3 - 21.9 cSt, and a 60 grade within 21.9 - 26.1. Is that really a significant difference?
It's just that the viscosity measurement at 40C seems to be typically around the 90 cSt mark (give or take), and if it's essentially a log relationship as i believe it is, then the viscosity at 0C can be over 300 - 400 cSt. It just seems that the variation of viscosity between grades is much less important than the variation of viscosity with varying temperature.
As the viscosity of any oil is so much thinner at operating temperature than start-up temperature, is there really any disadvantage of using a thin W grade oil - a 0W is still going to be a lot thicker at ambient temperature than any oil, even a 60, would be at operating temperature.
cheers
skinny
Just add a couple of questions to above.
How importent are esters (polar) on start up compared to flow assuming UK climate conditions.
Sump oil temp may be 100c but within engine this is higher and therefore is HTHS at 150c at better guide to oil choice, especially in view of low weight oils to improve fuel economy compared to engine wear.
How importent are esters (polar) on start up compared to flow assuming UK climate conditions.
Sump oil temp may be 100c but within engine this is higher and therefore is HTHS at 150c at better guide to oil choice, especially in view of low weight oils to improve fuel economy compared to engine wear.
Firstly the HT/HS number is a good way of identifying a decent oil as the higher the number the higher the resistance to shear which indicates the quality of the basestock used.
Hope this answers the viscosity questions, if not feel free to ask away.
Oil viscosities are accurately measured in units called “Centistokes” at exactly 100 degC. These fall into five high temperature SAE catagories:-
SAE No. 20 30 40 50 60
Viscosity Range 5.6 - <9.3 9.3 - <12.5 12.5 - <16.3 16.3 - <21.9 21.9 - <26
A decent quality oil usually has a viscosity that falls in the middle of the spec, so a SAE 40 will be about 14 Centistoke units, but SAE ratings are quite wide, so it’s possible for one 40 oil to be noticeably thicker or thinner than another.
When the polymer modified multigrades appeared, a low temperature range of tests were brought in, called “W” for winter (it doesn’t mean weight).
These simulate cold start at different non-ferrous monkey endangering temperatures from –15 degC for the 20w test to a desperate –35 degC for 0w.
So, for example, an SAE 5w-40 oil is one that has a viscosity of less than 6600 units at –30 degC, and a viscosity of about 14 units at 100 degC.
Now, those of you who have been paying attention will say “Just a minute! I thought you said these multigrade polymers stopped the oil thinning down, but 6600 to 14 looks like a lot of thinning to me!”. Good point, but the oil does flow enough to allow a marginal start at –30 degC, and 14 is plenty of viscosity when the engine is running normally. (A lot more could damage the engine. Nobody uses the 24 viscosity SAE 60 oils any more.)
The vital point is, a monograde 40 would be just like candle wax at –30 degC, and not much better at –10 degC. It would even give the starter motor a fairly difficult time at 0 degC. (At 0 degC, a 5w-40 has a viscosity of 800 but the monograde 40 is up at 3200!)
Cheers
Guy
Hope this answers the viscosity questions, if not feel free to ask away.
Oil viscosities are accurately measured in units called “Centistokes” at exactly 100 degC. These fall into five high temperature SAE catagories:-
SAE No. 20 30 40 50 60
Viscosity Range 5.6 - <9.3 9.3 - <12.5 12.5 - <16.3 16.3 - <21.9 21.9 - <26
A decent quality oil usually has a viscosity that falls in the middle of the spec, so a SAE 40 will be about 14 Centistoke units, but SAE ratings are quite wide, so it’s possible for one 40 oil to be noticeably thicker or thinner than another.
When the polymer modified multigrades appeared, a low temperature range of tests were brought in, called “W” for winter (it doesn’t mean weight).
These simulate cold start at different non-ferrous monkey endangering temperatures from –15 degC for the 20w test to a desperate –35 degC for 0w.
So, for example, an SAE 5w-40 oil is one that has a viscosity of less than 6600 units at –30 degC, and a viscosity of about 14 units at 100 degC.
Now, those of you who have been paying attention will say “Just a minute! I thought you said these multigrade polymers stopped the oil thinning down, but 6600 to 14 looks like a lot of thinning to me!”. Good point, but the oil does flow enough to allow a marginal start at –30 degC, and 14 is plenty of viscosity when the engine is running normally. (A lot more could damage the engine. Nobody uses the 24 viscosity SAE 60 oils any more.)
The vital point is, a monograde 40 would be just like candle wax at –30 degC, and not much better at –10 degC. It would even give the starter motor a fairly difficult time at 0 degC. (At 0 degC, a 5w-40 has a viscosity of 800 but the monograde 40 is up at 3200!)
Cheers
Guy
Guy you are a fountain of knowledge
And to hijack the thread slightly
Will a GL5 grade gearbox oil be OK in my Caterham diff and gearbox (build manual only says "EP90" but the handbook (which isn't for my car specifically) sayf use a GL4)
Cheers
Ben
>> edited to say, race car, caterham with (I think) Sierra longbox, f
k know what the diff is
>> Edited by Incorrigible on Monday 25th October 15:29
And to hijack the thread slightly
Will a GL5 grade gearbox oil be OK in my Caterham diff and gearbox (build manual only says "EP90" but the handbook (which isn't for my car specifically) sayf use a GL4)
Cheers
Ben
>> edited to say, race car, caterham with (I think) Sierra longbox, f
k know what the diff is >> Edited by Incorrigible on Monday 25th October 15:29
Incorrigible said:
Guy you are a foutain of knowledge
And to hijack the thread slightly
Will a GL5 grade gearbox oil be OK in my Caterham diff and gearbox (build manual only says "EP90" but the handbook (which isn't for my car specifically) sayf use a GL4)
Cheers
Ben
Ben,
Yes what you are looking for is a GL4/GL5, there is a difference with this. A straight GL4 has been designed to help syncromesh gearboxes work smoother, the GL5 is more known as a diff oil because of its load bearing qualities but can affect the syncromesh componants, a GL4/GL5 is happy in a gearbox and happy to take the kind of loads generated by a diff.
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers
Guy.
Cheers mate, and thanks for a really promt response
Basically GL5 is fine then
but a gl4 might have been a bit better for the gearbox 
It's all brand new so I don't mind going to buy some more if that's what you'd reccomend
Would it make that much difference
>> edited to say, I've found a bit in the owners manual that says "on no account use a GL5 grade oil"
I'm getting even more confused now
>> Edited by Incorrigible on Monday 25th October 16:52
Basically GL5 is fine then
but a gl4 might have been a bit better for the gearbox It's all brand new so I don't mind going to buy some more if that's what you'd reccomend
Would it make that much difference
>> edited to say, I've found a bit in the owners manual that says "on no account use a GL5 grade oil"
I'm getting even more confused now
>> Edited by Incorrigible on Monday 25th October 16:52
OK, sorry when you said GL4/GL5, I though you meant either 
I went to the motor factor to change the wrong oil and they said that all the oils bar one was a GL5 and that GL5 was the "new standard"
I assume that was bollocks
Anyway managed to get a 80/90 GL4, and it was a quid cheaper, and it's in the car now so I'm not fg changing it 
I went to the motor factor to change the wrong oil and they said that all the oils bar one was a GL5 and that GL5 was the "new standard"
I assume that was bollocks
Anyway managed to get a 80/90 GL4, and it was a quid cheaper, and it's in the car now so I'm not f
g changing it Incorrigible said:
OK, sorry when you said GL4/GL5, I though you meant either
I went to the motor factor to change the wrong oil and they said that all the oils bar one was a GL5 and that GL5 was the "new standard"
I assume that was bollocks
Anyway managed to get a 80/90 GL4, and it was a quid cheaper, and it's in the car now so I'm not f
Yep,
It took me a while to understand this one fully.
Just to really confuse things there is now a GL6. The GL5 is a new standard as most modern (2000 onwards) cars call for GL5, but to combat the syncromesh problems of the other cars out there they made the GL4/GL5 to do both.
Cheers
Guy.
Dont mean to be a pain, but just to clarify...
you say that 14cSt (or a 40 grade) will be fine for normal running but more than that will not be good for the engine. But at ambient temperature, 10 / 15C, the oil is going to be much much thicker than 14cSt. Why can't you use an oil that is still 40 grade for the high temperature but thinner at low temperature, i.e. why not use a 0W-40 instead of a 15W-40. The viscosity when running at operating temp will be the same, but at low temp, the 0W will be thinner than the 15W (but still a fair bit thicker than either oil at operating temperature) and so circulate a lot easier...
Also, as an aside, I thought i heard that even tho it's a higher load rating than GL5, GL6 was an old and now obselete standard and the equipment to measure a GL6 oil does not exist anymore?
>> Edited by skinny on Tuesday 26th October 14:54
you say that 14cSt (or a 40 grade) will be fine for normal running but more than that will not be good for the engine. But at ambient temperature, 10 / 15C, the oil is going to be much much thicker than 14cSt. Why can't you use an oil that is still 40 grade for the high temperature but thinner at low temperature, i.e. why not use a 0W-40 instead of a 15W-40. The viscosity when running at operating temp will be the same, but at low temp, the 0W will be thinner than the 15W (but still a fair bit thicker than either oil at operating temperature) and so circulate a lot easier...
Also, as an aside, I thought i heard that even tho it's a higher load rating than GL5, GL6 was an old and now obselete standard and the equipment to measure a GL6 oil does not exist anymore?
>> Edited by skinny on Tuesday 26th October 14:54
Hi guy, great thread and advice here..
As a lay
person i must admit to becoming very confused with all the terminology and definitions.
I own a 1990 TVR 400SE (4 Litre V8)
The car had unknown oil in when i bought it, so i changed it immediately. I phoned a reputable TVR dealer who informed me that i should use M1 0W/40 fully synthetic, as that's what they use..
The engine has used zero oil in 1000 miles so far, BUT and i may be imagining it, the engine sounds more clattery??
Is this oil ok/best? Too thin..?
Thanks for your help
Wayne(ster)
As a lay
person i must admit to becoming very confused with all the terminology and definitions. I own a 1990 TVR 400SE (4 Litre V8)
The car had unknown oil in when i bought it, so i changed it immediately. I phoned a reputable TVR dealer who informed me that i should use M1 0W/40 fully synthetic, as that's what they use..
The engine has used zero oil in 1000 miles so far, BUT and i may be imagining it, the engine sounds more clattery??
Is this oil ok/best? Too thin..?
Thanks for your help
Wayne(ster)
jeremyc said:Is that not the butlers job old chap
My owner's guide just gives a list of acronyms and a complicated chart of oil grades for average ambient temperatures.
So, what do I need that conforms to: API SJ/CF, ACEA A3/B3 and ILSAC GF2?
It'll be road use, mostly in the average ambient temperature of Great Britain.
jeremyc said:
My owner's guide just gives a list of acronyms and a complicated chart of oil grades for average ambient temperatures.
So, what do I need that conforms to: API SJ/CF, ACEA A3/B3 and ILSAC GF2?
It'll be road use, mostly in the average ambient temperature of Great Britain.
For which one of your cars?
opieoilman said:The DB7 Vantage.
My owner's guide just gives a list of acronyms and a complicated chart of oil grades for average ambient temperatures.
So, what do I need that conforms to: API SJ/CF, ACEA A3/B3 and ILSAC GF2?
It'll be road use, mostly in the average ambient temperature of Great Britain.
For which one of your cars?
Does it make a difference which one it's for providing the oil conforms to the specs?
jeremyc said:
jeremyc said:
My owner's guide just gives a list of acronyms and a complicated chart of oil grades for average ambient temperatures.
So, what do I need that conforms to: API SJ/CF, ACEA A3/B3 and ILSAC GF2?
It'll be road use, mostly in the average ambient temperature of Great Britain.
For which one of your cars?
The DB7 Vantage.
Does it make a difference which one it's for providing the oil conforms to the specs?
It does make a difference because you need to get the viscosity right. Not only that just because the oil conforms to the specs does not mean its any good, like cheap home brand coke cola from a supermarket, conforms to the specs for human consumption but it is not good by anymeans.
The RS2 for egsample, all VW engines do things by codes, your oil for the RS2 will need to meet a VW spec regardless of normall specs.
The Caterham for egsample, it depends on what you would use oit for, different grade for different uses and dry sump or not etc.
The Vantage for the UK climate I would go for a 5w-40, which is suitable from -30 to +40 deg and is the most common range for our cars to be in with our wonderfull climate.
Yes any oil that conforms to the specs you mention would do, but I would look for a "true" synthetic that does not use petroleum base stocks, but is made up of PAO or Ester base stock.
It would be shame not to do the best for a Vantage.
Cheers
Guy.
opieoilman said:
The Vantage for the UK climate I would go for a 5w-40, which is suitable from -30 to +40 deg and is the most common range for our cars to be in with our wonderfull climate.
Yes any oil that conforms to the specs you mention would do, but I would look for a "true" synthetic that does not use petroleum base stocks, but is made up of PAO or Ester base stock.
Thanks for your help. Which brands of oil are a true PAO or ester base stock synthetic that comply with these specifications then?
>> Edited by jeremyc on Friday 29th October 17:39
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