Discussion
.If I remember rightly the stuff is called something like Red-114 and its chemical composition is top secret. It is a tertiary amine and you can hydrolyse it with conc hydrochloric acid to take the red out.
I am not talking as a fuel specialist here, I am talking as a chemist, so I have no idea about how the "officials" see this. If I remember rightly red diesel is the high sulphur stuff (remember Mr. Brown is a very very nice man to the environment by insisting on low sulphur stuff for the ROAD), so an exhaust test will pick up the high sulphur stuff.
A mate of mine (Separation Scientist) has tried every method under the sun for de-redding diesel and the conc acid is the go. What you have to do is this. Get your amount of red diesel in a big tank and throw in some very concentrated hydrochloric acid (probably available to farmers for something) say a good 2 litres in a big old tank, try not to go under 0.5% by volume. You need to agitate the tits out of it until the red colour goes. I suggest using something like a small outboard motor. The red colour will disappear and you will be left with yellow/normal diesel. You might want to increase your chances of getting busted by having a glass filter which is visible and say "no officer, here is my fuel filter", that way he wont be suspicious and offer the exhaust test. If he does that, you need to say that you have cleaned your tank with sulphuric acid as it was secondhand, gummed up etc, etc.
After agitation the acid/water/dye bits will settle to the bottom of the tank, where you need to drain this off. Conc Hydrochloric is not a good idea for any part of your engine.
All the above is total lies and you shouldn't believe a word of it, I'm only having a laugh, etc.
stu
I am not talking as a fuel specialist here, I am talking as a chemist, so I have no idea about how the "officials" see this. If I remember rightly red diesel is the high sulphur stuff (remember Mr. Brown is a very very nice man to the environment by insisting on low sulphur stuff for the ROAD), so an exhaust test will pick up the high sulphur stuff.
A mate of mine (Separation Scientist) has tried every method under the sun for de-redding diesel and the conc acid is the go. What you have to do is this. Get your amount of red diesel in a big tank and throw in some very concentrated hydrochloric acid (probably available to farmers for something) say a good 2 litres in a big old tank, try not to go under 0.5% by volume. You need to agitate the tits out of it until the red colour goes. I suggest using something like a small outboard motor. The red colour will disappear and you will be left with yellow/normal diesel. You might want to increase your chances of getting busted by having a glass filter which is visible and say "no officer, here is my fuel filter", that way he wont be suspicious and offer the exhaust test. If he does that, you need to say that you have cleaned your tank with sulphuric acid as it was secondhand, gummed up etc, etc.
After agitation the acid/water/dye bits will settle to the bottom of the tank, where you need to drain this off. Conc Hydrochloric is not a good idea for any part of your engine.
All the above is total lies and you shouldn't believe a word of it, I'm only having a laugh, etc.
stu
It sounds improbable to me but if he did it, good on him. You would need the fullers earth in a really powdery form. The problem would be getting fullers earth into your engine. You really don't want any in there at all. Activated carbon would be a good idea. A trip to the power station might sort that out. The question would be, what else in the diesel would interact with the fullers earth???? I have little experience of it myself. Although I know that the desulphurisation involves washing with caustic soda. But all we are interested in is getting the red colour out.
Ive 'heard' (bar talk) that there are chemical markers in it, so even if you just put a couple of gallons in your tank, they can still tell if they dip your tank several weeks after it was put in (and consumed)
You could always simply purchase yourself a JCB FastTrack, good for 50MPH, never any parking problems and strangly everyone pulls over and lets you through.
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Wednesday 6th October 20:49
You could always simply purchase yourself a JCB FastTrack, good for 50MPH, never any parking problems and strangly everyone pulls over and lets you through.
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Wednesday 6th October 20:49
Removing the colour from red is quite popular here. Ive heard of the acid method before but never knew much about it, but it seems to be most commonly done in 'factorys' where illegal laundering operations take place, doing so in large quantities.
However, the acid doesnt do the pump/injectors any favours, and has been responsible for breakdowns.
I have never tried the cat litter method myself, but I have heard quite a lot of people doing it, so I'd be fairly sure it works. As it is smaller quantities though, I couldnt say if there are any bad side effects like with the acid.
Very interesting to read about the acid method, and why they can actually do a litmus style test with the exhaust. I had always wondered how they could posibly tell just by checking the exhaust, as I had heard many people say that customs were able to tell using that method.
A few years ago, Isuzu withdrew their new 3.0td Trooper from the NI market, after many engine failures. It was about the only market in Europe with the problem. They had replaced a lot under warranty, but could not find the problem with the engines.
They then commissioned a study, of over 650 filling stations here., I think something like over 400 sold what they described as below standard fuel.
I guess some engines are more susceptible to bad fuel ( acid ) than others
Though, at the end of the day, if/when they dip, they do sometimes take samples of the fuel, the colour is just for a quick identification.
After all, heating oil is clear, and despite its lack of lubrication, a diesel engine will quite happily run on it. Some people add engine oil to the heating oil, in order to provide some lubrication qualities, or mix it with diesel.
I know people using it, but again, most are cheap diesel cars, that they dont own for long.
The diesel engine appears to be very versatile that it will run on a variety of fuels. Even vegetable oil !!!
>> Edited by stevieturbo on Wednesday 6th October 21:08
However, the acid doesnt do the pump/injectors any favours, and has been responsible for breakdowns.
I have never tried the cat litter method myself, but I have heard quite a lot of people doing it, so I'd be fairly sure it works. As it is smaller quantities though, I couldnt say if there are any bad side effects like with the acid.
Very interesting to read about the acid method, and why they can actually do a litmus style test with the exhaust. I had always wondered how they could posibly tell just by checking the exhaust, as I had heard many people say that customs were able to tell using that method.
A few years ago, Isuzu withdrew their new 3.0td Trooper from the NI market, after many engine failures. It was about the only market in Europe with the problem. They had replaced a lot under warranty, but could not find the problem with the engines.
They then commissioned a study, of over 650 filling stations here., I think something like over 400 sold what they described as below standard fuel.
I guess some engines are more susceptible to bad fuel ( acid ) than others
Though, at the end of the day, if/when they dip, they do sometimes take samples of the fuel, the colour is just for a quick identification.
After all, heating oil is clear, and despite its lack of lubrication, a diesel engine will quite happily run on it. Some people add engine oil to the heating oil, in order to provide some lubrication qualities, or mix it with diesel.
I know people using it, but again, most are cheap diesel cars, that they dont own for long.
The diesel engine appears to be very versatile that it will run on a variety of fuels. Even vegetable oil !!!
>> Edited by stevieturbo on Wednesday 6th October 21:08
love machine said:
It sounds improbable to me but if he did it, good on him. You would need the fullers earth in a really powdery form.
Well, it seems to be able to grab hold of the amines which make cat pee stink, so if the dye is an amine it sounds plausible.
love machine said:
The question would be, what else in the diesel would interact with the fullers earth????
I'd be surprised if it did anything noticeable to the hydrocarbons.
love machine said:
Although I know that the desulphurisation involves washing with caustic soda. But all we are interested in is getting the red colour out.
Well, zap the colour with hydrochloric acid then wash the sulphur out with caustic soda. That way you neutralise the remaining acid AND pass the exhaust sulphur test.
Ok, the hydrochloric acid isn't a problem because it is Aqueous (watery) and separates from the oil if left. Hopefully not forming a suspension. If you were nervous about it, adding a dash of Caustic Soda would neutralise it.
The tertiary amines are 3 big hydrocarbonish chains which are diesel soluble, I don't think anything physical like a surface can get a good grip on the nitrogen. But, good point about the cat piss. Pouring Conc HCL on the cat would probably sort it out as well!!!!
I think that the trace metal bollocks is just that. I initially thought that the colourant was an organometallic compound and therefore detectable in nano-quantities. Again, it would be relatively easy to add something like EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetra Acetic Acid!!!) Which grabs the metal and boots the rest of the shit off. It would then be possible to "Wash" this out. You can buy buckets of EDTA and it is in shampoo. You could also put more of the metal in and so it would give their detectors a "silly" spurious result.
Cat litter sounds great, but it is like valve seat cutting paste in your engine. The heating oil sounds like a good idea.
I'm off to the pub for a pint and chat to my customs and excise mate (interesting bloke)
stu
The tertiary amines are 3 big hydrocarbonish chains which are diesel soluble, I don't think anything physical like a surface can get a good grip on the nitrogen. But, good point about the cat piss. Pouring Conc HCL on the cat would probably sort it out as well!!!!
I think that the trace metal bollocks is just that. I initially thought that the colourant was an organometallic compound and therefore detectable in nano-quantities. Again, it would be relatively easy to add something like EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetra Acetic Acid!!!) Which grabs the metal and boots the rest of the shit off. It would then be possible to "Wash" this out. You can buy buckets of EDTA and it is in shampoo. You could also put more of the metal in and so it would give their detectors a "silly" spurious result.
Cat litter sounds great, but it is like valve seat cutting paste in your engine. The heating oil sounds like a good idea.
I'm off to the pub for a pint and chat to my customs and excise mate (interesting bloke)
stu
What would be the most expensive piece of kit with a diesel engine? - probably the earth moving plant on road construction sites etc. What fuel does this run on - RED. Do you think the operators would take a chance of engine failure - thought not.
Anyone know what fuel railway locomotives run on?
Steve
Anyone know what fuel railway locomotives run on?
Steve
I think railway locos run on a heavier oil. Fuel oil style stuff.
Fullers earth aka Kieselguhr (commonish name) aka diatomaceous earth. Is an Aluminium silicate which has a high absorbance for oils as well as "impurities" from what I can gather, there is no differentiation.
The problem would probably be the reuse of the stuff, Conc acid is easily recyclable and reuseable but the fullers earth would lose its efficiency pretty quickly.
If it works, great. I reckon that it might pose problems though. Will try some and see what happens.
Fullers earth aka Kieselguhr (commonish name) aka diatomaceous earth. Is an Aluminium silicate which has a high absorbance for oils as well as "impurities" from what I can gather, there is no differentiation.
The problem would probably be the reuse of the stuff, Conc acid is easily recyclable and reuseable but the fullers earth would lose its efficiency pretty quickly.
If it works, great. I reckon that it might pose problems though. Will try some and see what happens.
I believe locomotives do run on a heavier grade of fuel; it certainly smells like it. More like the smell of heating oil than normal diesel.
Well, stevieturbo reckons people have knackered pumps and injectors with it. I'd have thought that the hydrochloride of a tertiary amine with long chains would stand a good chance of having some degree of detergent properties, so you might get some held in suspension.
love machine said:
Ok, the hydrochloric acid isn't a problem because it is Aqueous (watery) and separates from the oil if left. Hopefully not forming a suspension. If you were nervous about it, adding a dash of Caustic Soda would neutralise it.
Well, stevieturbo reckons people have knackered pumps and injectors with it. I'd have thought that the hydrochloride of a tertiary amine with long chains would stand a good chance of having some degree of detergent properties, so you might get some held in suspension.
I'm no chemical expert, but I know that plenty of taxi drivers would use cheap fuel, from one source or another. Most usually end up needing pumps replaced. Obviously their mileage is much higher than normal people, so any problems would show themselves sooner.
What the makeup of the cheap fuel they are using is, Im not sure, but the acid/red thing is most likely.
But, from what I read, the chemists here dont seem to think it would pose a problem ???
Anyone I have heard of doing the cat litter thing, are private motorists, so quantities and milage wuld be much lower. I think it was one particular brand of cat litter that was favoured. Again, I dont know which one.
What the makeup of the cheap fuel they are using is, Im not sure, but the acid/red thing is most likely.
But, from what I read, the chemists here dont seem to think it would pose a problem ???
Anyone I have heard of doing the cat litter thing, are private motorists, so quantities and milage wuld be much lower. I think it was one particular brand of cat litter that was favoured. Again, I dont know which one.
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