Discussion
Ok, heres another question.
Heating oil and Derv are said to be virtually the same thing, or possibly exactly the same.
If you were to be dipped by customs, how would they then tell the difference between heating oil and diesel ? If they cant tell the difference, why bother declaring duty ?
If you do use heating oil and declare the duty, what is the current rate of duty on such fuel, per litre say ??
All heating oil I have seen is virtually clear in colour, exactly the same as diesel, despite what some others here say about its colour..
Thats not just a rarity, as most heating systems here are oil.
Some petrol stations, and even Tesco sell emergency 20l drums of kerosene/heating oil, for those who have run out. It is clear/white in colour, same as diesel.
Heating oil and Derv are said to be virtually the same thing, or possibly exactly the same.
If you were to be dipped by customs, how would they then tell the difference between heating oil and diesel ? If they cant tell the difference, why bother declaring duty ?
If you do use heating oil and declare the duty, what is the current rate of duty on such fuel, per litre say ??
All heating oil I have seen is virtually clear in colour, exactly the same as diesel, despite what some others here say about its colour..
Thats not just a rarity, as most heating systems here are oil.
Some petrol stations, and even Tesco sell emergency 20l drums of kerosene/heating oil, for those who have run out. It is clear/white in colour, same as diesel.
Not an expert in any sense, but I "had this mate" who ran various diesel cars for long periods on red, heating oil and during fuel shortage times aviation fuel from a friendly helicopter engineer.
Mileages were considerable, cars were kept for between 2 and 3 years and still running fine when sold.
All of the fuels seemed to perform equally badly (just like a real diesel......), none produced any more smoke than usual (I found that diesels normally smoke from lack of regular oil changes. If you get an MOT fail on emmissions just give it a new filter and some good quality oil)
I (I mean "He"....) still smile when I think of how much fuel duty went unpaid.........
I have 2 cars now, both petrol!
Mileages were considerable, cars were kept for between 2 and 3 years and still running fine when sold.
All of the fuels seemed to perform equally badly (just like a real diesel......), none produced any more smoke than usual (I found that diesels normally smoke from lack of regular oil changes. If you get an MOT fail on emmissions just give it a new filter and some good quality oil)
I (I mean "He"....) still smile when I think of how much fuel duty went unpaid.........
I have 2 cars now, both petrol!
Trading standards dont give a monkeys as long as the fuel is supplied in the correct units, to the correct specification, which all fuel refined in the UK does, the pumps are accurate and the price corresponds with the advertised price on the pump.
Its not who makes or refines the the product that defines the brand, its the brand on the station the fuel is sold from.
When I sold fuel the biggest problem I had was stations that were contracted to my brand buying "foreign" loads on the spot market and topping up their tanks late at night.
As the fuel was of merchantable quality, sold in the correct units etc Trading Standards werent interested in the fact that it wasnt my wagons supplying the correct brand of fuel to the site, and hence other fuels were being supplied to the end consumer.It was simply a contractual problem between the oil company and the cheating garage owner.
Think about that the next time you fill up with Optimax or Ultimate etc at a competitivly priced, independently owned branded dealer site.
Theres loads of one man businesses with owner operated tankers supplying fuel on the spot market price late at night ( especially weekends, fewer oil company reps about to catch contract infringements) to stations wanting to make a better margin.
Cheers,
Tony
Its not who makes or refines the the product that defines the brand, its the brand on the station the fuel is sold from.
When I sold fuel the biggest problem I had was stations that were contracted to my brand buying "foreign" loads on the spot market and topping up their tanks late at night.
As the fuel was of merchantable quality, sold in the correct units etc Trading Standards werent interested in the fact that it wasnt my wagons supplying the correct brand of fuel to the site, and hence other fuels were being supplied to the end consumer.It was simply a contractual problem between the oil company and the cheating garage owner.
Think about that the next time you fill up with Optimax or Ultimate etc at a competitivly priced, independently owned branded dealer site.
Theres loads of one man businesses with owner operated tankers supplying fuel on the spot market price late at night ( especially weekends, fewer oil company reps about to catch contract infringements) to stations wanting to make a better margin.
Cheers,
Tony
Ok, the point you get in trouble for is that you are avoiding duty. Even though it would be a long shot. You could declare the duty on red diesel, say "Look, I have x thousand litres of red diesel, I want to use it in my car, can I pay for the duty?". The answer is yes. So, that is how you could get around the red diesel problem. HOWEVER, they may investigate your red diesel consumption and SEE if you have been avoiding duty. This, I believe is only relevant to red diesel. This is where you get an innocent neighbour to have your tank, have a big diesel boat or a diesel generator to run something random. Basically a viable way to "explain away" their curiosities.
So, as long as you can prove you paid the duty, Gordon Brown is a happy chappy. Having proof of you using more than your declared amount is VERY difficult indeed. The metal trace compound is the one which will get a big finger pointing at you.
I doubt anyone has tried paying the duty on red diesel for road use. You are merely not wanting to waste it, want to realise it's true value and pay your duty.
Next year Rodders!
So, as long as you can prove you paid the duty, Gordon Brown is a happy chappy. Having proof of you using more than your declared amount is VERY difficult indeed. The metal trace compound is the one which will get a big finger pointing at you.
I doubt anyone has tried paying the duty on red diesel for road use. You are merely not wanting to waste it, want to realise it's true value and pay your duty.
Next year Rodders!
really interesting thread. I know of a number of people who have run red diesel for decades and never been caught. One piece of advise though, my brother operates heavy plant machinery and has had the tank on his diesel pickup dipped loads of times while on building sites. It seems that the "feds" like to target people who have 1)Got access to red diesel and 2)Are likely to risk using it. Other than that you'd be incredibly unlucky if you got caught. How many "got stopped by the BiB and had my tank dipped" threads have appeared on here over the years?
I strongly suspect that the frequency of dipping increases in areas where abuse is likely. I am told that at some country shows and Farmers-type-things (Sheepdog Trials etc) it is quite common practice for a chap from HMCE to instruct everyone to open their fuel caps and dip all tanks. My family is from agricultural areas, and I have seen this done. All very genial, polite, and they do occasionally come across a diesel landie with the wrong stuff in and take the relevant farmer away for questioning.
However, what are the odds of the Met stopping every TDi Golf entering the square mile and dipping every tank there?
(Mind you, living in a 1st floor flat, I would have difficulty taking delivery of a decent quantity of central heating fuel ... )
Oli.
However, what are the odds of the Met stopping every TDi Golf entering the square mile and dipping every tank there?
(Mind you, living in a 1st floor flat, I would have difficulty taking delivery of a decent quantity of central heating fuel ... )
Oli.
Dipping operations here are actuallt quite common. They usually target hauliers, vans and taxis, but if they are doing roadside checks, they can and do stop private cars too.
They also target some Hauliers premesis, dipping every vehicle on site, wether it was seen being used on the road or not.
Ive also come across a roadside check myself, although didnt have to drive through it.
They seem to do operations every few weeks, for maybe 10-14 days at a time, hitting certain areas hard, on most major routes.
Saying that, you would still be unlucky to come across one, as they only hang about for maybe an hour at a time.
They also target some Hauliers premesis, dipping every vehicle on site, wether it was seen being used on the road or not.
Ive also come across a roadside check myself, although didnt have to drive through it.
They seem to do operations every few weeks, for maybe 10-14 days at a time, hitting certain areas hard, on most major routes.
Saying that, you would still be unlucky to come across one, as they only hang about for maybe an hour at a time.
Tony427 said:
Trading standards dont give a monkeys as long as the fuel is supplied in the correct units, to the correct specification, which all fuel refined in the UK does, the pumps are accurate and the price corresponds with the advertised price on the pump.
Its not who makes or refines the the product that defines the brand, its the brand on the station the fuel is sold from.
When I sold fuel the biggest problem I had was stations that were contracted to my brand buying "foreign" loads on the spot market and topping up their tanks late at night.
As the fuel was of merchantable quality, sold in the correct units etc Trading Standards werent interested in the fact that it wasnt my wagons supplying the correct brand of fuel to the site, and hence other fuels were being supplied to the end consumer.It was simply a contractual problem between the oil company and the cheating garage owner.
Think about that the next time you fill up with Optimax or Ultimate etc at a competitivly priced, independently owned branded dealer site.
Theres loads of one man businesses with owner operated tankers supplying fuel on the spot market price late at night ( especially weekends, fewer oil company reps about to catch contract infringements) to stations wanting to make a better margin.
Cheers,
Tony
Since the garage make next to nothing on fuel (90% of profits come from convenience shopping nowadays) can you blame an indy for trying to make a little better living??
mcflurry said:
Trading standards dont give a monkeys as long as the fuel is supplied in the correct units, to the correct specification, which all fuel refined in the UK does, the pumps are accurate and the price corresponds with the advertised price on the pump.
Its not who makes or refines the the product that defines the brand, its the brand on the station the fuel is sold from.
When I sold fuel the biggest problem I had was stations that were contracted to my brand buying "foreign" loads on the spot market and topping up their tanks late at night.
As the fuel was of merchantable quality, sold in the correct units etc Trading Standards werent interested in the fact that it wasnt my wagons supplying the correct brand of fuel to the site, and hence other fuels were being supplied to the end consumer.It was simply a contractual problem between the oil company and the cheating garage owner.
Think about that the next time you fill up with Optimax or Ultimate etc at a competitivly priced, independently owned branded dealer site.
Theres loads of one man businesses with owner operated tankers supplying fuel on the spot market price late at night ( especially weekends, fewer oil company reps about to catch contract infringements) to stations wanting to make a better margin.
Cheers,
Tony
Since the garage make next to nothing on fuel (90% of profits come from convenience shopping nowadays) can you blame an indy for trying to make a little better living??
Is this before or after the independent has taken a huge lump of money up front off the oil company right at the start of the supply agreement to purchase or redevelop the site, buy property, buy a Bentley, fund a divorce settlement, buy a foreign holiday home etc etc.
Independent dealers can either take a decent margin on the fuel, a lump sum up front and a smaller margin, or a combination of the two.
If the dealer after entering into the contract then tries to screw the oil company that has funded him by taking "foreigners" then thats called fraud....
Cheers,
Tony
towman said:
What would be the most expensive piece of kit with a diesel engine? - probably the earth moving plant on road construction sites etc. What fuel does this run on - RED. Do you think the operators would take a chance of engine failure - thought not.
Anyone know what fuel railway locomotives run on?
Steve
Steve,
loco engines run on heavy oil, the same that is found in large marine engines that power ships.
Don't run red, you will get shagged if they catch you and the trace metals are detectable in parts per zillion.
You could try the approach of "I have several gallons of Red Diesel, I can't resell it, I want to pay the duty and use it in my car. You pay them the cash due for the maximum amount they could catch you with. Of course, you don't use the car at all. Involves a bit of milage fraud. But if you are going to con the chancellor out of his money, you might as well get a limited milage insurance police and shag them as well!
Motoring is too expensive and it is time people started finding legal ways of bending the laws. I for one will be having 500 miles worth of duty paid and an insurance policy to go with it.
Call me a punk, but I can't really afford to keep Gordon in rockets and asylum seekers!
You could try the approach of "I have several gallons of Red Diesel, I can't resell it, I want to pay the duty and use it in my car. You pay them the cash due for the maximum amount they could catch you with. Of course, you don't use the car at all. Involves a bit of milage fraud. But if you are going to con the chancellor out of his money, you might as well get a limited milage insurance police and shag them as well!
Motoring is too expensive and it is time people started finding legal ways of bending the laws. I for one will be having 500 miles worth of duty paid and an insurance policy to go with it.
Call me a punk, but I can't really afford to keep Gordon in rockets and asylum seekers!
stevieturbo said:
Heavy oil....and what does it say on your tax book for your car as to type of fuel it uses ??
Any diesel car Ive ever owned has said heavy oil.
That's an old fashioned expression that the DVLA have hung onto for some inexplicable reason.
Heavy oil used on ships is a much thicker, less refined form of derv for use in extremely large engines.
Totally amazing thread. Just about to order my new ager and get the boiler changed from gas.
These guys are really helpful
They sell tanks as well. All I need now is a diesal car
These guys are really helpful
They sell tanks as well. All I need now is a diesal car
OK, here's a question about red.
Supposedly it's traceable in parts per gazillion or some other miniscule amount. Well what would happen if you bought a car which unbeknownst to you had been run on red at some point in its life. How on earth would you go about proving it had nothing to do with you if you got dipped? It's not a real life scenario, but something that's not beyond the realms of possibility...
Phil.
Supposedly it's traceable in parts per gazillion or some other miniscule amount. Well what would happen if you bought a car which unbeknownst to you had been run on red at some point in its life. How on earth would you go about proving it had nothing to do with you if you got dipped? It's not a real life scenario, but something that's not beyond the realms of possibility...
Phil.
The thought of buying a car that has been run on red diesel worries me too. I run a number of diesel mondeo taxis which are let out to drivers on a weekly basis, it would not surprise me if any one of them puts red diesel in and then hands the car back! One lad has already been told his car exhaust smells like a chippy! I have had a car stolen and that was found a week later with red diesel in its tank
the fuel lines on newer cars are clear, or near enough, and you can see any discolouration but if their is some chemical trace element left behind then you are definitely stuffed.
the fuel lines on newer cars are clear, or near enough, and you can see any discolouration but if their is some chemical trace element left behind then you are definitely stuffed.
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