Honda HRV loosing power when warm
Discussion
Firstly, I am glad you got it sorted, and that is the main thing.
Although to a less extreme extent, I am with pumaracing, a weak spark can run an engine fine at tick over, as long as there is a spark, however under load it will lose wads of power.
The basics of running an engine have never changed significantly, the basics are just as important as they ever were.
Your diagnostic guy should have known better.
Although to a less extreme extent, I am with pumaracing, a weak spark can run an engine fine at tick over, as long as there is a spark, however under load it will lose wads of power.
The basics of running an engine have never changed significantly, the basics are just as important as they ever were.
Your diagnostic guy should have known better.
Modern ignition systems can mask much 
take this COP Suzuki Carry engine the vehicle came in for a check over and was running fine i.e no hard starting, loss of power, misfiring etc 
an old points system would never have tolerated this much abuse and doubtful an electronic based dizzy system would too 
forgot to mention this had previously been annually main dealer serviced (I witnessed the stamps) 
take this COP Suzuki Carry engine the vehicle came in for a check over and was running fine i.e no hard starting, loss of power, misfiring etc an old points system would never have tolerated this much abuse and doubtful an electronic based dizzy system would too forgot to mention this had previously been annually main dealer serviced (I witnessed the stamps) Sardonicus said:
Modern ignition systems can mask much take this COP Suzuki Carry engine the vehicle came in for a check over and was running fine i.e no hard starting, loss of power, misfiring etc an old points system would never have tolerated this much abuse and doubtful an electronic based dizzy system would too forgot to mention this had previously been annually main dealer serviced (I witnessed the stamps)
Yes, but you'd expect that from a main dealer history. take this COP Suzuki Carry engine the vehicle came in for a check over and was running fine i.e no hard starting, loss of power, misfiring etc an old points system would never have tolerated this much abuse and doubtful an electronic based dizzy system would too forgot to mention this had previously been annually main dealer serviced (I witnessed the stamps)To be fair, it is easy to criticise and say you should check this, you should check that etc etc...
Often you do assume the owner has at last carried out some sort of half sensible maintenance on the car. So you do overlook obvious things like plugs.
But no matter what when trying to diagnose a car blind for the first time. You do have to start somewhere. And that starting point isnt always the spark plugs.
On some cars, access to plugs can be a total nightmare too.
stevieturbo said:
Yes, but you'd expect that from a main dealer history.
To be fair, it is easy to criticise and say you should check this, you should check that etc etc...
Often you do assume the owner has at last carried out some sort of half sensible maintenance on the car. So you do overlook obvious things like plugs.
But no matter what when trying to diagnose a car blind for the first time. You do have to start somewhere. And that starting point isnt always the spark plugs.
On some cars, access to plugs can be a total nightmare too.
Agreed To be fair, it is easy to criticise and say you should check this, you should check that etc etc...
Often you do assume the owner has at last carried out some sort of half sensible maintenance on the car. So you do overlook obvious things like plugs.
But no matter what when trying to diagnose a car blind for the first time. You do have to start somewhere. And that starting point isnt always the spark plugs.
On some cars, access to plugs can be a total nightmare too.
those pictured above are a little fiddly to get at hence why I think they was conveniently overlooked 
andyiley said:
Your diagnostic guy should have known better.
Right, i'm going to bite here 
I may be putting myself under scrutiny here too
I am the 'diagnostic tech' the original poster called out to this problem. Its what I do...
The person called me out before I had seen this thread, I saw it before going to see the car but declined to make a comment or make any judgements until I had actually seen the vehicle, simply because its not all black and white.
Sometimes the internet and forums can be the worst place to make a diagnosis, and in my business the number of times I have had customers tell me that so'n'so said this and superman1234 said that 'its that thingy there' winds me up and I have to put it at the back of my mind and run through the same procedure to find the root cause of the issue. Sometimes they're right, sometimes not, but I'm sure if I started ripping bits off the car before going through a set procedure my reputation would soon go downhill.
A quick chat with the owner about the history and symptoms and we get started.
I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
The OP has come in for a bit of a bashing on here for not checking the plugs before hand, in his defence it did start fine and showed no sign of a misfire. I get called out to all sorts, and had this on numerous occasions even if the car is mis firing they still expect a computer to tell them... Like the customer who had a broken down plug lead, insulation gone and firing against the plug hole, I even showed him the burn marks, but as he insisted I plugged the computer in which then showed no faults he didn't agree with me and decided to ignore my advice for new leads and went to a garage who told him the exact same thing and charged him twice as much to change the leads...
I have many happy customers including small car dealers and garages who cannot afford the more advanced equipment these days, or just cant be bothered to upgrade. I am not a big company, or make lots of money, but I provide a service to many as I can come out to a dead car rather than them paying to get it to a garage who will charge much more. But its getting a tough world out there with ebay diagnostic tools and joe bloggs with his 'special' program next door. If the world was as clever as we all are then there would be no need for garages.
So yes, it took 45 minutes before the plugs were removed, but the immediate symptoms from the customer and the resulting checks and test drive didn't warrant removing them until returning from said test drive..
Hindsight is always 100% perfect. You sorted the problem. Well done.
I get fed up with heroes who have little or no real experience being experts in everything. Quite often they rely on other peoples expertise to do work for them whether machining or rolling road tuning and then become self appointed experts in all things automotive! I have probably done around 6500 dynos in my time as you have probably done many many diagnostic sessions. we dont always get it right in three milliseconds but we plod on, sort the prblem and learn more from first hand knowledge which can be used on another occasion. Those who gain their skills and knowledge either second or third hand do not learn as deeply as those who learn from first hand knowledge.
It's the degrees the knowledge travels before reaching you:
First Hand = I saw
Second Hand = my friend saw and told me
Third Hand = my friend has a friend who saw and told my friend who told me
Fourth Hand = My friend has a friend who has a friend who saw and ....
and so forth.....from yahoo answers
The great scholar Sufyan ath-Thawri is reported to have said,
“Knowledge is three hand-spans: the first breeds arrogance, the second breeds humility, and in the third, you realize you know nothing.”
...... one is then ready to understand perhaps?
Peter
I get fed up with heroes who have little or no real experience being experts in everything. Quite often they rely on other peoples expertise to do work for them whether machining or rolling road tuning and then become self appointed experts in all things automotive! I have probably done around 6500 dynos in my time as you have probably done many many diagnostic sessions. we dont always get it right in three milliseconds but we plod on, sort the prblem and learn more from first hand knowledge which can be used on another occasion. Those who gain their skills and knowledge either second or third hand do not learn as deeply as those who learn from first hand knowledge.
It's the degrees the knowledge travels before reaching you:
First Hand = I saw
Second Hand = my friend saw and told me
Third Hand = my friend has a friend who saw and told my friend who told me
Fourth Hand = My friend has a friend who has a friend who saw and ....
and so forth.....from yahoo answers
The great scholar Sufyan ath-Thawri is reported to have said,
“Knowledge is three hand-spans: the first breeds arrogance, the second breeds humility, and in the third, you realize you know nothing.”
...... one is then ready to understand perhaps?
Peter
Edited by PeterBurgess on Thursday 3rd October 22:03
Mikey G said:
A quick chat with the owner about the history and symptoms and we get started.
I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
This is actually rather interesting. So the ecu was using abnormal fuel and ignition advance settings to try and compensate for the spark plug condition?I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
Pumaracing said:
Mikey G said:
A quick chat with the owner about the history and symptoms and we get started.
I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
This is actually rather interesting. So the ecu was using abnormal fuel and ignition advance settings to try and compensate for the spark plug condition?I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
Mikey, comingg, as I do, from an era where there weren't such things as computers under the bonnet, I still understand the way that an engine converts fuel and electricity into forward motion.
On top of this I also use (basic if I am honest) diagnostic equipment when required.
However I stiil, remember that deep inside an engine is basically the same as it has been for many years in the combustion cycle, and that a spark plug can show many things about an engine, and I am sorry buy with virtually any running problem, the first thing I would have done is to lift the bonnet, and look for the obvious.
These would include, plug & lead condition, air filter condition, inlet/exhaust condition, general security & leak tightness around fuel/air components just for starters, that would cover the first 10/15 minutes at the most. Then I would be starting the engine & checking for fault codes, then I would be considering a test drive.
I equally stress that this has nothing to do with hindsight as PeterBurgess suggested, it is simply a methodical approach (in my opinion) to getting to the root of the problem.
OBVIOUSLY there are as many ways of checking an engine as there are experienced mechanincs/diagnostic technicians, I was using my personal methods as a benchmark in my answer to the post.
Edited by andyiley on Friday 4th October 08:04
Hi Andy....10/15 mins to do all that? Even humble MGBs and Midgets take longer than that! My experience, like yourself, is also mainly Olde Worlde cars but..... have you ever changed or even inspected the plugs in a V12 Jag with air conditioning?
I think Mikey has done well, presented with a real world, not hypothetical problem and has sorted it. It can be difficult knowing where to start unless one has an in depth knowledge of that particular model and symptoms/causes/cures one is going to rely to an extent on listening and interpreting what the car owner says.
As Dave Baker said....brakes getting hot could have caused this.
I had a problem with my works Jimny....kept packing up when pushed at 60/70 mph, problem got worse and worse and happened at lower speeds....no fault code. Sorted by BigJimny on forum who knew from experience was crank sensor on my Japanese built Jimny....would have been different on the Spanish built ones apparently!
Peter
I think Mikey has done well, presented with a real world, not hypothetical problem and has sorted it. It can be difficult knowing where to start unless one has an in depth knowledge of that particular model and symptoms/causes/cures one is going to rely to an extent on listening and interpreting what the car owner says.
As Dave Baker said....brakes getting hot could have caused this.
I had a problem with my works Jimny....kept packing up when pushed at 60/70 mph, problem got worse and worse and happened at lower speeds....no fault code. Sorted by BigJimny on forum who knew from experience was crank sensor on my Japanese built Jimny....would have been different on the Spanish built ones apparently!
Peter
I am starting to struggle to get my head around this. I posted on this forum to get some advice on a problem that I have never experienced in 28 years of driving and loads of different cars. Apart from the initial advice, most of the replies seem to be criticising the methods used to rectify the fault. One person in particular is down right rude and should keep their opinions of other people to theirself.
Mikey did an excellent job in rectifying the problem. He was methodical in his diagnosis. His rates were very reasonable and I would have no hesitation in using him again. I would also recommend him to anyone.
Mikey did an excellent job in rectifying the problem. He was methodical in his diagnosis. His rates were very reasonable and I would have no hesitation in using him again. I would also recommend him to anyone.
PeterBurgess said:
Hi Andy....10/15 mins to do all that? Even humble MGBs and Midgets take longer than that! My experience, like yourself, is also mainly Olde Worlde cars but..... have you ever changed or even inspected the plugs in a V12 Jag with air conditioning?
I think Mikey has done well, presented with a real world, not hypothetical problem and has sorted it. It can be difficult knowing where to start unless one has an in depth knowledge of that particular model and symptoms/causes/cures one is going to rely to an extent on listening and interpreting what the car owner says.
As Dave Baker said....brakes getting hot could have caused this.
I had a problem with my works Jimny....kept packing up when pushed at 60/70 mph, problem got worse and worse and happened at lower speeds....no fault code. Sorted by BigJimny on forum who knew from experience was crank sensor on my Japanese built Jimny....would have been different on the Spanish built ones apparently!
Peter
Fair comment, no I haven't, I was thinking of a simple average boggo 4-pot when saying 15 min, obviously with access issues, or added complexity it could add SIGNIFICANTLY to that.I think Mikey has done well, presented with a real world, not hypothetical problem and has sorted it. It can be difficult knowing where to start unless one has an in depth knowledge of that particular model and symptoms/causes/cures one is going to rely to an extent on listening and interpreting what the car owner says.
As Dave Baker said....brakes getting hot could have caused this.
I had a problem with my works Jimny....kept packing up when pushed at 60/70 mph, problem got worse and worse and happened at lower speeds....no fault code. Sorted by BigJimny on forum who knew from experience was crank sensor on my Japanese built Jimny....would have been different on the Spanish built ones apparently!
Peter
You are correct, Mikey has sorted it out, and I did say in my original reply, that that is the main thing. He has done so in his own methodical approach, which he uses because it has served him well.
I have also said that there are as many different approaches as there are experienced guys out there. He has found a way that suits him, as I have me,
I still hold true to the "cover the basics first" methods rather than the, increasingly seen these days, "if all else fails try the obvious" approach.
andyiley said:
Pumaracing said:
This is actually rather interesting. So the ecu was using abnormal fuel and ignition advance settings to try and compensate for the spark plug condition?
I may be being over-simplistic here, but, is that not it's job?If they don't have this ability then the OP has more to worry about than just worn out spark plugs because the fueling and ignition settings are abnormal.
Like P.Burgess and others ,I am very old school with virtualy no insight or experience with modern electonics but surely any one with any common sense knowing that plugs are not changed now till 60k+would go to plugs first off ,wether faults were shown or not ? ,I have seen stationary engine run in all sorts of states but if the plug was no good no start no run. Unfortunatly the auto trade has now got a pretty bad rep for poor service etc and its not getting better, on the other hand people are expecting things to run for ever, produce massive horse power ,incredible m.p.g. but not be serviced or cost any thing to run , think mech/techs earn a fortune it's a sad old world !! ps The above limits to knowledge are about me only !not others Peter is a very clever and consiencios person with allmost magical skills as he proved on my personal toy.
Edited by one eyed mick on Friday 4th October 12:07
Pumaracing said:
As far as I'm aware no ecu could possibly know anything about spark plug wear other than by detecting misfiring but we are told no fault codes were stored. Perhaps the situation had not reached the point where fault codes were being created despite abnormal combustion conditions being detected but I have no knowledge of how this particular ecu system works. However if modern ecus have the ability to try and compensate for abnormal combustion conditions by over-riding closed loop operation and altering fuel and ignition parameters then I find this both interesting and puzzling as I am not aware that any such ability exists (electrickery is definitely not my area of expertise though so there are doubtless many things about ecus I'm not aware of). Hence my question.
If they don't have this ability then the OP has more to worry about than just worn out spark plugs because the fueling and ignition settings are abnormal.
You raise a good point, and I am not quite sure either. As I said, am I being over-simplistic. I am under the impression that an ECU has a "tolerance band" within which it works and within that it can adjust certain parameters (fuel/timing) to best suit, but I have to admit that like you I am a bit in the dark on the full abilities of an ECU to produce a "work round" for its operating conditions.If they don't have this ability then the OP has more to worry about than just worn out spark plugs because the fueling and ignition settings are abnormal.
Sardonicus said:
Modern ignition systems can mask much. Take this COP Suzuki Carry engine. The vehicle came in for a check over and was running fine i.e no hard starting, loss of power, misfiring etc
Which is exactly my point. Either a plug fires or it doesn't. If it fires every cycle then the engine runs ok and doesn't lose power or misfire. If it doesn't then the engine misfires. Under normal operating conditions i.e neither excessively lean or rich mixtures and normal cylinder filling (stock road engine rather than turbo or race motor) it's almost impossible to envisage a situation where the plugs still fire every cycle (no misfiring) but the engine loses significant amounts of power.As the plug gap increases so does the required spark voltage to jump the gap. If the ignition system produces such high voltages that even badly worn plugs will still fire then the engine should continue to run normally. The abnormally high voltage may eventually find an easier path to earth through a plug lead insulation but then the engine will misfire and the problem will become obvious.
So we're told by both the OP and now the diagnostic tech that the engine wasn't misfiring and started ok from cold. That means the worn plugs were still firing. Kudos to the power of the ignition system perhaps but it doesn't resolve the bhp loss symptom to my satisfaction. In other words the worn plugs are either a red herring or the ecu was somehow totally corrupting the ideal fuel and ignition settings and hence losing engine power just because the plug gap was high. I see no mechanism for this to happen.
Until someone can come up with a mechanism that explains this I can't accept that the plugs are the primary problem.
I guess we have to ask the OP, with just the plugs changed does the engine now behave normally in all respects?
The ecu would have no mechanism to adjust timing based on plug condition.
Other than perhaps using timing for idle control, if it does so, timing tables would be fairly rigid
However, via lambda readings amount of fuel injected could certainly be adjusted, and might be a good thing or bad depending on how accurate that reading is under the circumstances. And it doesnt take much to skew it to be wrong, and have a negative effect on running.
Not sure if the HRV would use closed loop under heavier loads though.
Even open loop, some cars with a dodgy lambda sensor will still run badly for some reason, and still throw no codes
And over time the long term trims would be up the left. So someone could wrongly diagnose a sensor here, when dodgy readings are a symptom rather than a cause.
Modern cars can be a right PITA though
Other than perhaps using timing for idle control, if it does so, timing tables would be fairly rigid
However, via lambda readings amount of fuel injected could certainly be adjusted, and might be a good thing or bad depending on how accurate that reading is under the circumstances. And it doesnt take much to skew it to be wrong, and have a negative effect on running.
Not sure if the HRV would use closed loop under heavier loads though.
Even open loop, some cars with a dodgy lambda sensor will still run badly for some reason, and still throw no codes
And over time the long term trims would be up the left. So someone could wrongly diagnose a sensor here, when dodgy readings are a symptom rather than a cause.
Modern cars can be a right PITA though
Mikey G said:
Right, i'm going to bite here
I may be putting myself under scrutiny here too
I am the 'diagnostic tech' the original poster called out to this problem. Its what I do...
The person called me out before I had seen this thread, I saw it before going to see the car but declined to make a comment or make any judgements until I had actually seen the vehicle, simply because its not all black and white.
Sometimes the internet and forums can be the worst place to make a diagnosis, and in my business the number of times I have had customers tell me that so'n'so said this and superman1234 said that 'its that thingy there' winds me up and I have to put it at the back of my mind and run through the same procedure to find the root cause of the issue. Sometimes they're right, sometimes not, but I'm sure if I started ripping bits off the car before going through a set procedure my reputation would soon go downhill.
A quick chat with the owner about the history and symptoms and we get started.
I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
The OP has come in for a bit of a bashing on here for not checking the plugs before hand, in his defence it did start fine and showed no sign of a misfire. I get called out to all sorts, and had this on numerous occasions even if the car is mis firing they still expect a computer to tell them... Like the customer who had a broken down plug lead, insulation gone and firing against the plug hole, I even showed him the burn marks, but as he insisted I plugged the computer in which then showed no faults he didn't agree with me and decided to ignore my advice for new leads and went to a garage who told him the exact same thing and charged him twice as much to change the leads...
I have many happy customers including small car dealers and garages who cannot afford the more advanced equipment these days, or just cant be bothered to upgrade. I am not a big company, or make lots of money, but I provide a service to many as I can come out to a dead car rather than them paying to get it to a garage who will charge much more. But its getting a tough world out there with ebay diagnostic tools and joe bloggs with his 'special' program next door. If the world was as clever as we all are then there would be no need for garages.
So yes, it took 45 minutes before the plugs were removed, but the immediate symptoms from the customer and the resulting checks and test drive didn't warrant removing them until returning from said test drive..
Whoops, that will put the cat amongst the pigeons.I may be putting myself under scrutiny here too
I am the 'diagnostic tech' the original poster called out to this problem. Its what I do...
The person called me out before I had seen this thread, I saw it before going to see the car but declined to make a comment or make any judgements until I had actually seen the vehicle, simply because its not all black and white.
Sometimes the internet and forums can be the worst place to make a diagnosis, and in my business the number of times I have had customers tell me that so'n'so said this and superman1234 said that 'its that thingy there' winds me up and I have to put it at the back of my mind and run through the same procedure to find the root cause of the issue. Sometimes they're right, sometimes not, but I'm sure if I started ripping bits off the car before going through a set procedure my reputation would soon go downhill.
A quick chat with the owner about the history and symptoms and we get started.
I am not that familiar with the HRV but the same principles apply to any car I am called to. The car was cold on arrival and started first time to pull it out the garage. No codes were stored so live data was chosen (namely coolant temp, MAP and O2 sensor) and watch the data as it warmed up. All seemed fine apart from O2 graph showing more towards rich (it was still cold).
Once fully warmed a test drive followed which confirmed it was very sluggish, I noticed a hesitancy and what felt like over fuelling as it held back, O2 sensor was showing consistently about 0.9v even at a cruise. A quick change of parameters to include ignition timing and carry on to show only 8-10 degrees of advance at full throttle. That's the point I decided to get the plugs out which led to finding that they were a very worn set. I was surprised myself how smooth it ran considering their condition.
The OP has come in for a bit of a bashing on here for not checking the plugs before hand, in his defence it did start fine and showed no sign of a misfire. I get called out to all sorts, and had this on numerous occasions even if the car is mis firing they still expect a computer to tell them... Like the customer who had a broken down plug lead, insulation gone and firing against the plug hole, I even showed him the burn marks, but as he insisted I plugged the computer in which then showed no faults he didn't agree with me and decided to ignore my advice for new leads and went to a garage who told him the exact same thing and charged him twice as much to change the leads...
I have many happy customers including small car dealers and garages who cannot afford the more advanced equipment these days, or just cant be bothered to upgrade. I am not a big company, or make lots of money, but I provide a service to many as I can come out to a dead car rather than them paying to get it to a garage who will charge much more. But its getting a tough world out there with ebay diagnostic tools and joe bloggs with his 'special' program next door. If the world was as clever as we all are then there would be no need for garages.
So yes, it took 45 minutes before the plugs were removed, but the immediate symptoms from the customer and the resulting checks and test drive didn't warrant removing them until returning from said test drive..
OK, 2 questions for my own education - Why do you think the O2 sensor was showing rich in (presumably) closed loop running. I would have expected a lean condition if all the O2 had not been used, so rich is difficult for me to understand.
Obviously with the plugs being so worn there is likely to be an ignition issue - why do you think the ignition advance was so low?
Have we got any folk who designed the Honda setup on PH? Maybe they could give a definitive answer. Seems to me a problem has been threaded, an answer has been given with a positive result which can be salted away for future reference. Some of us don't know all the ins and outs of how it all works or why.....maybe like Oddball in Kelly's Heroes...
Oddball: Hi, man.
Big Joe: What are you doing?
Oddball: I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.
Big Joe: What's happening?
Oddball: Well, the tank's broke and they're trying to fix it.
Big Joe: Well, then, why the hell aren't you up there helping them?
Oddball: [chuckles] I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work.
Big Joe: Christ!
Oddball: Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation.
Peter
Oddball: Hi, man.
Big Joe: What are you doing?
Oddball: I'm drinking wine and eating cheese, and catching some rays, you know.
Big Joe: What's happening?
Oddball: Well, the tank's broke and they're trying to fix it.
Big Joe: Well, then, why the hell aren't you up there helping them?
Oddball: [chuckles] I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes 'em work.
Big Joe: Christ!
Oddball: Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation.
Peter
If the Honda ECU as pulled advance out of the timing MAP because its over-fulling for example its only a matter of programing the ECU for that has is getting feedback from the O2 sensor after all if thats what Honda deem has safe/safer and this is Honda after all just my cents worth "What If" and all that .........
if thats what Honda deem has safe/safer and this is Honda after all just my cents worth "What If" and all that .........Edited by Sardonicus on Sunday 6th October 10:34
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