Discussion
And how do you map round det?
Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
Edited by jontysafe on Thursday 30th April 19:29
stevieturbo said:
Max_Torque said:
er, these days, 9.5 isn't really high any longer!
(I run ~10.8:1 on my high boost engine)
What fuel, and what's high boost ?(I run ~10.8:1 on my high boost engine)
I don't run nearly so much boost at low speeds, below around 4500rpm, but as i'm only 2wd, the chassis can't handle the torque even if i could (which i why i optimised the engine for power and not torque (627bhp))
jontysafe said:
And how do you map round det?
Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
You dont want to end up with a setup running very low timing because you're restricted by the high CR for your setup.Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
If you're using pump fuel only, then I just dont see any point trying to do silly things with high CR's it just makes no sense and leaves little room for error. But you probably could work around the 9.5:1 in the 400-450hp range as long as your tuner is very competent.
Over that and on pump only, I would definitely want lower, even more so if you arent 100% confident in your intercooling on track.
Water/meth injection is by far the most efficient detonation suppressant, mainly because it's only used when needed. Normal driving, low loads etc it isnt being used. Race fuel etc like Max is using...well for most daily activities that is just wasted.
With that in mind you could stick with the 9.5, use the water/meth at higher boost levels, and save lower boost levels for the road and pump fuel only. I'm sure it would be easy enough to install a decent sized water/meth tank in the car, just make sure the tuner builds in some failsafes in case there is a problem with the water/meth.
Max_Torque said:
102 and 2.2bar(gauge) at peak power rpm (7950), but it'll run the same on 98 with Water injection.
I don't run nearly so much boost at low speeds, below around 4500rpm, but as i'm only 2wd, the chassis can't handle the torque even if i could (which i why i optimised the engine for power and not torque (627bhp))
Maybe I should rethink fitting an Aquamist system then.I don't run nearly so much boost at low speeds, below around 4500rpm, but as i'm only 2wd, the chassis can't handle the torque even if i could (which i why i optimised the engine for power and not torque (627bhp))
Talking about setting an engine up for power or torque I'm rear wheel drive and we haven't decided on final head spec. My last head was running bd16+ inlet and bd14 exh cams with a nice port job and a gt3076 bolted to it, this was set up for bhp not torque which actually made the car easier to drive. Might well be the same set up going forward.
I want to get the boost mapped with 3 reference tables, rpm, road speed and gear.
I have also heard that the way the efr turbos come on boost is easier on traction than the Gt30 I had.
jontysafe said:
Maybe I should rethink fitting an Aquamist system then.
Talking about setting an engine up for power or torque I'm rear wheel drive and we haven't decided on final head spec. My last head was running bd16+ inlet and bd14 exh cams with a nice port job and a gt3076 bolted to it, this was set up for bhp not torque which actually made the car easier to drive. Might well be the same set up going forward.
I want to get the boost mapped with 3 reference tables, rpm, road speed and gear.
I have also heard that the way the efr turbos come on boost is easier on traction than the Gt30 I had.
How they come on boost can largely be controlled with some sensible boost control unless the turbo is on the large side for the setupTalking about setting an engine up for power or torque I'm rear wheel drive and we haven't decided on final head spec. My last head was running bd16+ inlet and bd14 exh cams with a nice port job and a gt3076 bolted to it, this was set up for bhp not torque which actually made the car easier to drive. Might well be the same set up going forward.
I want to get the boost mapped with 3 reference tables, rpm, road speed and gear.
I have also heard that the way the efr turbos come on boost is easier on traction than the Gt30 I had.
And trying to use both roadspeed and gear at the same time will get confusing if it even offers that. Usually it's one or the other, and you will need an undriven wheel speed source for the ecu too.
No sense having boost related to driven wheel speed...if you get wheelspin this would then end up giving you more boost making the problem worse.
As to whether boost vs speed or boost vs gear is the better option, harder to say. Given the nature of the car and engine boost vs roadspeed probably makes more sense.
You could possibly try Alan Jeffery in Bristol
http://www.enginetuner.co.uk/tuning.htm
And although they dont mention Motec, maybe Julian Godfrey ? He's bound to use it on some stuff.
Or Owens Developments or even Motec Europe dont seem too far away via their dealer list ?
http://www.motec.com/dealerssectionuk/dealersukire...
If Dave Rowe is recommending Dialynx then if they're local and willing, I'm sure they would be good if you arent able to use Dave himself.
or Powerstation in Gloucester ? They've been around and using Motec for years.
http://www.enginetuner.co.uk/tuning.htm
And although they dont mention Motec, maybe Julian Godfrey ? He's bound to use it on some stuff.
Or Owens Developments or even Motec Europe dont seem too far away via their dealer list ?
http://www.motec.com/dealerssectionuk/dealersukire...
If Dave Rowe is recommending Dialynx then if they're local and willing, I'm sure they would be good if you arent able to use Dave himself.
or Powerstation in Gloucester ? They've been around and using Motec for years.
Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 2nd May 21:14
I had a good chat to Owen Developments today who will probably do my mapping. We were chatting about turbo choice and I said I was going twin scroll EFR. He suggested a GTX35 (he would as Owen Developments is a Garrett distributor) but my engine builder also suggested the same and that his own car (now sold) had a GTX35 and he really rated them both for boost threshold AND power.
I hadn`t really thought of one to be honest. Owens rate them as better for spool than the GT30.
Now that we`ve decided to go solid lifters and the bottom end is about as good as a YB can get whilst still on wet sump, the rev limit is going to be set at 8200rpm so its no good if the turbo can`t give decent usable power after 7000rpm. I was thinking an EFR7163 would fit the bill but I would probably have to go up two sizes to the EFR7670 with that rev limit.
Owens also recommended just running on race fuel, not so sure about £85 per fill. Someone suggested a 10%-15% by volume toluene / V power mix.
I hadn`t really thought of one to be honest. Owens rate them as better for spool than the GT30.
Now that we`ve decided to go solid lifters and the bottom end is about as good as a YB can get whilst still on wet sump, the rev limit is going to be set at 8200rpm so its no good if the turbo can`t give decent usable power after 7000rpm. I was thinking an EFR7163 would fit the bill but I would probably have to go up two sizes to the EFR7670 with that rev limit.
Owens also recommended just running on race fuel, not so sure about £85 per fill. Someone suggested a 10%-15% by volume toluene / V power mix.
jontysafe said:
Owens also recommended just running on race fuel, not so sure about £85 per fill. Someone suggested a 10%-15% by volume toluene / V power mix.
The trick is to have a couple of boost settings, and ideally link those settings to the knock control system, which if it is continuously retarding the ignition, then reduces boost pressure. That way you can run any fuel you like, and the engine sorts itself out!jontysafe said:
The standard knock sensor on the YB is not very good at all.
I doubt it's the knock sensor that's the issue. And anyway, we'd be talking about detecting gross knock at high load, which is all about the signal processing (windoing/filtering) rather than the sensor itselfjontysafe said:
What Turbo you running Max?
Mines a proper frankensien job! It's a wrc Garrett TR30R core with custom Ti machined compressor and a trimmed Mar-M 247 turbine in ex-Indy car scrolls ;-)Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th May 21:52
Max_Torque said:
Mines a proper frankensien job! It's a wrc Garrett TR30R core with custom Ti machined compressor and a trimmed Mar-M 247 turbine in ex-Indy car scrolls ;-)
Your car sounds a labour of love Max. What are you hoping to do with it? Which way do you reckon I should go on Turbo?Edited by Max_Torque on Thursday 7th May 21:52
Several issues here.
Turbo...I'm sure you seen the thread on PF recently. Whilst I cant comprehend why, all the GT30 graphs they posted seemed horrific for such low powered cars.
The EFR's and indeed some GT35's seemed to spool earlier and make more power...which doesnt make a lot of sense.
Fuel, unless you're aiming for 500, 600+hp I really cant see the justification in this. A friends Subaru makes 750hp on 97 plus a little methanol.
It's cheap and easy. You could do it either via mixing with fuel, or via methanol injection. ( or yes you could add toluene instead of methanol. Meth seems cheaper to buy in bulk though, technically neither should be added to road fuel though, tax, hmrc and all that nonsense )
But running a 20% meth to petrol mix is very common these days.
Race fuel is all good and well if it is a race car only and you've deep pockets.
But for anything sub 500hp on a 2.0 turbo car...that expense just seems mental to me, even beyond it, it still seems mental. Maybe 700+ then yes it has real benefits...but then so does a meth/toluene mix at a fraction of the cost.
Knock and M400, you will need to buy Motec's SKM unit for this.
If you havent bought an ecu yet, just get a Syvecs S6, it will do everything you need in one box, and then some.
Turbo...I'm sure you seen the thread on PF recently. Whilst I cant comprehend why, all the GT30 graphs they posted seemed horrific for such low powered cars.
The EFR's and indeed some GT35's seemed to spool earlier and make more power...which doesnt make a lot of sense.
Fuel, unless you're aiming for 500, 600+hp I really cant see the justification in this. A friends Subaru makes 750hp on 97 plus a little methanol.
It's cheap and easy. You could do it either via mixing with fuel, or via methanol injection. ( or yes you could add toluene instead of methanol. Meth seems cheaper to buy in bulk though, technically neither should be added to road fuel though, tax, hmrc and all that nonsense )
But running a 20% meth to petrol mix is very common these days.
Race fuel is all good and well if it is a race car only and you've deep pockets.
But for anything sub 500hp on a 2.0 turbo car...that expense just seems mental to me, even beyond it, it still seems mental. Maybe 700+ then yes it has real benefits...but then so does a meth/toluene mix at a fraction of the cost.
Knock and M400, you will need to buy Motec's SKM unit for this.
If you havent bought an ecu yet, just get a Syvecs S6, it will do everything you need in one box, and then some.
Max_Torque said:
The trick is to have a couple of boost settings, and ideally link those settings to the knock control system, which if it is continuously retarding the ignition, then reduces boost pressure. That way you can run any fuel you like, and the engine sorts itself out!
Saab trionic t5 does this pretty well considering how old the system is Steve, re meth and combining (not adding) to normal fuel. Have you seen the GM flex fuel system? Seems like a great little bit of kit that can basically detect how much meth is in the fuel and alter the tune accordingly. Do you know if any of the aftermarket ECUs support this as it would make increasing octane in your fuel easier and safer (less chance of using he wrong tube as it dose if on the fly).
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