intercooling

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anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
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stevieturbo said:
Max_Torque said:
Does it? You're gonna have to explain it to me!
Because it's much easier to achieve more flow paths for that same frontal area...ie tubes. The tubes are also shorter so offer less restriction.

And they will say because there are so many tubes, air slows down more and still spends enough time in there getting cooled.
Except for the fact you just make the total flow area the same for a cross flow (a smaller number of larger area tubes, so the pressure drop is the same) but the extra tube "length" gives you more cooling, so the overall effect is the same.

In fact, cooling performance is surprisingly independant of form factor. Much more important is the average reynolds number, mean velocity, wall thickness and heat transfer co-efficient.

witko999

629 posts

207 months

Saturday 8th February 2014
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I agree with StevieTurbo.

For an identical core size, more short tubes is better than fewer longer tubes. The air will move slower through the short tubes as there are more of them, therefore it will be cooled well as it spends more time in there. The air will be forced relatively quickly through fewer, longer tubes. The intercooler outlet temperature may be the same for both but the pressure drop will be lower with the former.

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Saturday 8th February 2014
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The other option is to improve the existing set up using this as the core:

http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PR...

This as the charge cooler pre rad:
https://www.funkypower.co.uk/catalogue.php?make=MI... ( this would be rear mounted)

Along with a header tank and decent water pump.

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Saturday 8th February 2014
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Max_Torque said:
Except for the fact you just make the total flow area the same for a cross flow (a smaller number of larger area tubes, so the pressure drop is the same) but the extra tube "length" gives you more cooling, so the overall effect is the same.

In fact, cooling performance is surprisingly independant of form factor. Much more important is the average reynolds number, mean velocity, wall thickness and heat transfer co-efficient.
All good and well if you have dozens of core designs to choose from and the money to buy any custom made stuff. We dont always have those easy choices.

But basically there are plenty of options. Whether water or air based.

Air is simple, cheaper, weighs less and zero maintenance.

Water can be more efficient...but water based systems may also have to deal with engine heat depending on how you build the system.
Plus they're heavier, more expensive and do require some small maintenance.

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Monday 10th February 2014
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Have spoken to Peter at Spec-R again today and am off to see him at some point next week if it stays dry!

Interesting conversation about core efficiency/sizing.

Have definitely decided to go air/air now.

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Monday 10th February 2014
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really interested to see what they recommend! where do you plan on mounting the engine rad?

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Monday 10th February 2014
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I have been toying with the idea of rear mounting the rad in the roll bar/cage frame in some sort of enclosure canted leaning into airflow. I`m not chasing power figures but just want to do something a bit different.

I even considered rear mounting an air to air intercooler but I think the pipework alone would make it a laggy old beast.

I don`t want to spend a fortune as it is still a Westie!

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Tuesday 11th February 2014
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Trying to think outside the ox a little, how about V mounting the intercooler to increase the frontal area? You could mount it either way but might be cool to mount it like the old BTCC cars used to mount the twin rads in the front of the car with exits on the sides!

End tanks would be a b!tch though as you would need to turn the air approx 135 degree turn at either end (assuming a 90 degree V angle).

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 14th February 2014
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Car is now with Nathan and Daniel at Lloyds Specialist Developments.

I was having a smoking issue on vacuum after a period on full boost (20psi) apparently the oil feeds needed rotating 180 degrees so that the turbo could drain itself, on lift off the wastegate was opening and hey presto blue smoke.

The ACT gauge has been installed and a new sensor for the speedometer on the Stack dash. The Silencer had at some point been skinned in Carbon fibre and that had cracked so a new silencer on the way from Tech-Craft or wunoff.

What has taken most time though is pulling a sheared stud out of the exhaust housing. Apparently it must have been built like that as well. Few other studs and bolts missing that have been replaced in the whole manifold/turbo assembly.

Various bad earths traced and some electrical gremlins sorted ready for MOT next week.

Soon as that is done I`ll be donning my wet suit and off to Spec-R. If We do go ahead with my planned air/air intercooler and relocating rad Lloyds will be doing the fabrication.

Very glad I accidentally found Lloyds, fairly local and rescued me last year from some, let`s say less skilled but keen chaps.

One point I raised re the relocation of the rad is will I need a supplementary water pump?

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Sunday 16th March 2014
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Have had another few issues recently, oil leak from turbo caught fire and melted away silicon oil drain pipe that had been installed. Still to find out if any permanent damage done to engine, I was crawling and switched off within 1 second it`s just how long the car had been driving with low oil is an unknown. I still had 46psi oil pressure up until 30 seconds before then is was all over the place so I turned off the road. I had topped up oil before I set off.

Need to drop the rest of the oil to see how much was left.

What do we reckon?

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Sunday 16th March 2014
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jontysafe said:
Have had another few issues recently, oil leak from turbo caught fire and melted away silicon oil drain pipe that had been installed. Still to find out if any permanent damage done to engine, I was crawling and switched off within 1 second it`s just how long the car had been driving with low oil is an unknown. I still had 46psi oil pressure up until 30 seconds before then is was all over the place so I turned off the road. I had topped up oil before I set off.

Need to drop the rest of the oil to see how much was left.

What do we reckon?
Silicone hose isnt ideal for oil, especially hot turbo oil. If you are using silicone with oil, it needs to be ordered specifically for that task.
Best using proper oil hose really.

And keep the oil drain metal for as long as possible.

But other than that, I'm sure the engine is fine...just make sure there are no oil leaks again !

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Sunday 16th March 2014
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Hello Steve, thanks for your reply,we are now making the drain pipe 95% steel with a lined silicon join to sump.

Missed 2 lovely sunny days this weekend!

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Monday 17th March 2014
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Another wee update:

The ACT gauge we fitted didn`t work so I ordered another one......which didn`t work.
Needless to say I`ll be sending them both back to Prosport Gauges. Looks like I`m going to have to shell out for a Spa Intercooler gauge at 5 times the price. The old adage rings true, buy cheap buy twice and it still doesn`t work!

Have fitted a new oil feed with less joins, re gapped the stack speed sensor, new Toyo R888s and a new Odyssey battery.


stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 17th March 2014
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Have you or your tuner no way of monitoring air temps ?

The ecu has it available, so they must have access to it ?

No sense wasting money

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Monday 17th March 2014
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They can't access the Weber L8 but it's more for me than anything else. Before I go to someone to live map the car I want to iron out all the weaknesses. That's how all this started really. Went to local tuner to adjust fueling and a whole host of problems availed themselves. There are so few people who can live map the Weber I want to get all changes done first so it's one visit.

I'm beginning to think aftermarket may be the way to go!

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Tuesday 18th March 2014
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If they cant access the ecu, how did they adjust the fueling ?

If you are sticking with the Ford ecu, you need to take it to someone who can tune it properly.

The likes of Reyland, NorrisMotorsport, Ahmed Bayjoo, Mike Rainbird etc etc

Aftermarket will open up many options for sure, but it may not be the cheapest options.
Although it should also make it easier for a wider range of tuners to assist

Which is why I'm saying be thrifty with spending now, in case it is money wasted in the long run.

Does the RP Labs software not allow you to view data ? Might be more useful overall than a single standalone gauge.

http://www.rp-lab.com/iaw_monitor.shtml

If the EvoDelta guy pops up, I think he's working on a PnP solution for the Lancias, which basically use the same setup as the Cossie.
So that might also be an option.

But with aftermarket ecu's there are literally dozens of options depending on budget, although most will either need wired in, or some sort of patch harness used.

Edited by stevieturbo on Tuesday 18th March 00:33

Heaveho

5,279 posts

173 months

Tuesday 18th March 2014
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If you're concerned about measuring air temps, can't you just use a k-type thermocouple and a Lascar digital gauge? It's a cheap solution, if it's accurate enough for you, and I don't see why it wouldn't be, I've been using that, and a scangauge for years. The scangauge takes a reading from the factory iat sensor on the inlet manifold, the thermocouple can be placed more or less anywhere you require a reading from, throttle body in my case. Gives a good comparison between how cold the air is at the tb, compared to how much heatsoak it's being subjected to immediately before entering the cylinders.

If I've misunderstood your requirements, accept my apologies and disregard!

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Tuesday 18th March 2014
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They couldn't adjust fuelling and the car is now booked into Norris Motorsport for a live map in April. Rather him than me though. He doesn't use a rolling road. Bu**er trying to map my car on the road. I know you're just logging parameters but still!

I have looked at the MSD iaw monitor and it does seem a good option and actually quite cheap.

Thanks for the info on the gauges and thermocouples. I'm off to google!

Heaveho

5,279 posts

173 months

Tuesday 18th March 2014
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Got the gauge direct from Lascar for about £45 from memory, RS Components for the thermocouples...I've got the part number for the particular k-type that is compatible with the gauge if you need it. It's a good ( and cheap! ) solution if it meets your requirements. I hate having auxiliary gauges on show, so I butchered the factory fit clock in mine ( never use it ) and put the temp display in there.

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Tuesday 18th March 2014
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Part numbers or links to would be great, thanks!