Discussion
Small update time!
Bought an Airtec 100mm top feed intercooler which should sort the cooling side of things, just have to sort fitting it now! I suspect there will be some butchering of the nosecone.
I've gone a bit mad on spec as well.
Have gone Nicasil lined, long studded 200 block with billet crank caps, Carrillo long rods, Arrow standard stroke crank. I also have some Pistons that I'm not sure about using. They are JE forged with titanium nitride coated rings but are 9.5:1.
I'm going with a Borg Warner EFR7163 running 1.8 bar.
What is the consensus on a CR this high. The engine was designed to run HUGE torque on a 48mm restrictor (ex Rallycross) which of course I don't have to run. I will speak with JE about whether I can machine a little CR out of the Pistons perhaps to 8.5:1 and if I can't then will have to go custom Pistons.
Bought an Airtec 100mm top feed intercooler which should sort the cooling side of things, just have to sort fitting it now! I suspect there will be some butchering of the nosecone.
I've gone a bit mad on spec as well.
Have gone Nicasil lined, long studded 200 block with billet crank caps, Carrillo long rods, Arrow standard stroke crank. I also have some Pistons that I'm not sure about using. They are JE forged with titanium nitride coated rings but are 9.5:1.
I'm going with a Borg Warner EFR7163 running 1.8 bar.
What is the consensus on a CR this high. The engine was designed to run HUGE torque on a 48mm restrictor (ex Rallycross) which of course I don't have to run. I will speak with JE about whether I can machine a little CR out of the Pistons perhaps to 8.5:1 and if I can't then will have to go custom Pistons.
I remember you saying you used a 10% methanol fuel mix in your car. Maybe I should run Shell Nitro and 10% methanol?
Seems a much easier way of doing it than plumbing in an unreliable injection system. Obviously I will have injector headroom to support.
It's going to be mapped on a Motec M400 but don't know who to use yet. possibly Dialynx.
Seems a much easier way of doing it than plumbing in an unreliable injection system. Obviously I will have injector headroom to support.
It's going to be mapped on a Motec M400 but don't know who to use yet. possibly Dialynx.
And how do you map round det?
Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
Fancy mapping mine?
I know you can take some ignition out but as my engine has been built with high PCPs in mind maybe these Pistons will work?
Stevie the only downside to me running methanol in the tank I can see is the logistics side of it. The car doesn't go very far on one Westfield petrol tankful!
Edited by jontysafe on Thursday 30th April 19:29
Max_Torque said:
102 and 2.2bar(gauge) at peak power rpm (7950), but it'll run the same on 98 with Water injection.
I don't run nearly so much boost at low speeds, below around 4500rpm, but as i'm only 2wd, the chassis can't handle the torque even if i could (which i why i optimised the engine for power and not torque (627bhp))
Maybe I should rethink fitting an Aquamist system then.I don't run nearly so much boost at low speeds, below around 4500rpm, but as i'm only 2wd, the chassis can't handle the torque even if i could (which i why i optimised the engine for power and not torque (627bhp))
Talking about setting an engine up for power or torque I'm rear wheel drive and we haven't decided on final head spec. My last head was running bd16+ inlet and bd14 exh cams with a nice port job and a gt3076 bolted to it, this was set up for bhp not torque which actually made the car easier to drive. Might well be the same set up going forward.
I want to get the boost mapped with 3 reference tables, rpm, road speed and gear.
I have also heard that the way the efr turbos come on boost is easier on traction than the Gt30 I had.
I had a good chat to Owen Developments today who will probably do my mapping. We were chatting about turbo choice and I said I was going twin scroll EFR. He suggested a GTX35 (he would as Owen Developments is a Garrett distributor) but my engine builder also suggested the same and that his own car (now sold) had a GTX35 and he really rated them both for boost threshold AND power.
I hadn`t really thought of one to be honest. Owens rate them as better for spool than the GT30.
Now that we`ve decided to go solid lifters and the bottom end is about as good as a YB can get whilst still on wet sump, the rev limit is going to be set at 8200rpm so its no good if the turbo can`t give decent usable power after 7000rpm. I was thinking an EFR7163 would fit the bill but I would probably have to go up two sizes to the EFR7670 with that rev limit.
Owens also recommended just running on race fuel, not so sure about £85 per fill. Someone suggested a 10%-15% by volume toluene / V power mix.
I hadn`t really thought of one to be honest. Owens rate them as better for spool than the GT30.
Now that we`ve decided to go solid lifters and the bottom end is about as good as a YB can get whilst still on wet sump, the rev limit is going to be set at 8200rpm so its no good if the turbo can`t give decent usable power after 7000rpm. I was thinking an EFR7163 would fit the bill but I would probably have to go up two sizes to the EFR7670 with that rev limit.
Owens also recommended just running on race fuel, not so sure about £85 per fill. Someone suggested a 10%-15% by volume toluene / V power mix.
Max_Torque said:
Mines a proper frankensien job! It's a wrc Garrett TR30R core with custom Ti machined compressor and a trimmed Mar-M 247 turbine in ex-Indy car scrolls ;-)
Your car sounds a labour of love Max. What are you hoping to do with it? Which way do you reckon I should go on Turbo?Edited by Max_Torque on Thursday 7th May 21:52
stevieturbo said:
Several issues here.
Turbo...I'm sure you seen the thread on PF recently. Whilst I cant comprehend why, all the GT30 graphs they posted seemed horrific for such low powered cars.
The EFR's and indeed some GT35's seemed to spool earlier and make more power...which doesnt make a lot of sense.
Fuel, unless you're aiming for 500, 600+hp I really cant see the justification in this. A friends Subaru makes 750hp on 97 plus a little methanol.
It's cheap and easy. You could do it either via mixing with fuel, or via methanol injection. ( or yes you could add toluene instead of methanol. Meth seems cheaper to buy in bulk though, technically neither should be added to road fuel though, tax, hmrc and all that nonsense )
But running a 20% meth to petrol mix is very common these days.
Race fuel is all good and well if it is a race car only and you've deep pockets.
But for anything sub 500hp on a 2.0 turbo car...that expense just seems mental to me, even beyond it, it still seems mental. Maybe 700+ then yes it has real benefits...but then so does a meth/toluene mix at a fraction of the cost.
Knock and M400, you will need to buy Motec's SKM unit for this.
If you havent bought an ecu yet, just get a Syvecs S6, it will do everything you need in one box, and then some.
I`ve already bought the Motec M400, I like the complete range that Motec offer. Expensive but compatibility and completeness of the range won me over. That and a lot of people map it.Turbo...I'm sure you seen the thread on PF recently. Whilst I cant comprehend why, all the GT30 graphs they posted seemed horrific for such low powered cars.
The EFR's and indeed some GT35's seemed to spool earlier and make more power...which doesnt make a lot of sense.
Fuel, unless you're aiming for 500, 600+hp I really cant see the justification in this. A friends Subaru makes 750hp on 97 plus a little methanol.
It's cheap and easy. You could do it either via mixing with fuel, or via methanol injection. ( or yes you could add toluene instead of methanol. Meth seems cheaper to buy in bulk though, technically neither should be added to road fuel though, tax, hmrc and all that nonsense )
But running a 20% meth to petrol mix is very common these days.
Race fuel is all good and well if it is a race car only and you've deep pockets.
But for anything sub 500hp on a 2.0 turbo car...that expense just seems mental to me, even beyond it, it still seems mental. Maybe 700+ then yes it has real benefits...but then so does a meth/toluene mix at a fraction of the cost.
Knock and M400, you will need to buy Motec's SKM unit for this.
If you havent bought an ecu yet, just get a Syvecs S6, it will do everything you need in one box, and then some.
I`m only talking about fuel additives because I`m going to be knock limited running 9.5:1 and 1.8 BAR of boost. It`s no hassle for me as I`ll only be doing very limited mileage. I`m not keen on the idea of water/meth injection as it`s just another thing to go wrong. The car already has an injection system and fuel tank and if additives can be used that way, whether it`s methanol or anything else this appeals just for simplicity`s sake.
I`m trying to simplify the whole car. I`m going away from water/air chargecooling to a large front mount air/air intercooler and a rear mount engine rad so I can get a decent size. The rad will be in airflow in the roll cage not in the bodywork like has been done before.
I know the car will be over specced for the power (circa 550bhp) but that certainly makes a change from what I`ve seen!
Max_Torque said:
jontysafe said:
The rad will be in airflow in the roll cage not in the bodywork like has been done before.
er, Parachute anyone!! ;-)(put the rad below the airflow line, and duct in air to the front of it, using a duct with a CSA of max about 60% of the radiators frontal area)
The car will spend 99% of it`s life below speeds that would cause aerodynamic issues because Westfields are pants!
Things moving in the right direction again, albeit slowly.
Have bought a Titan dry sump system and off to see engine builder in Saturday.
Another Westie has gone in the same direction as mine on the twin scroll front : http://www.westfield-cosworth.com/build-diary/2015...
I have spoken to Nortech and will do the same with Efr7163 turbo pegged at 1.8bar.
Have to speak to engine builder about whether we are going solid lifters and plenum/throttle body options.
He's keen that we keep power under 500 as he likened the car to a coffin!
Going to keep the charge cooler route but some nice ah fabrications slanted tube radiators rear mounted and ducted.
Have had the block cleaned and checked and work starts on porting the head soon. I'm still waiting for confirmation on piston clearances as builder said they were a little wide and if that's the case will have to get some custom ones in order.
I must admit I've been pretty recalctritant at getting moving in this as we've been refurbishing our cottage and have a baby due in August.
Have bought a Titan dry sump system and off to see engine builder in Saturday.
Another Westie has gone in the same direction as mine on the twin scroll front : http://www.westfield-cosworth.com/build-diary/2015...
I have spoken to Nortech and will do the same with Efr7163 turbo pegged at 1.8bar.
Have to speak to engine builder about whether we are going solid lifters and plenum/throttle body options.
He's keen that we keep power under 500 as he likened the car to a coffin!
Going to keep the charge cooler route but some nice ah fabrications slanted tube radiators rear mounted and ducted.
Have had the block cleaned and checked and work starts on porting the head soon. I'm still waiting for confirmation on piston clearances as builder said they were a little wide and if that's the case will have to get some custom ones in order.
I must admit I've been pretty recalctritant at getting moving in this as we've been refurbishing our cottage and have a baby due in August.
It would seem there's a bit of a taper on one or two of the bores but we're only talking 2 thou.
As you say once up to operating temp and running under boost a lot of engine builders like a bit extra clearance anyway.
We're doing a dry build to take a load of measurements and see where we're at.
There's a load of weird things going on re oil system mods, bearing orientation and weights that only Julian Godfrey knows why. I guess that's why he charges so many tens of thousands an engine. I don't have that kind of money though.
Have to buy a dry sump system as the Titan one I was going to get has fallen through. Trying to decide Opi or Pace at the mo. That's a major part of the build budget gone.
As you say once up to operating temp and running under boost a lot of engine builders like a bit extra clearance anyway.
We're doing a dry build to take a load of measurements and see where we're at.
There's a load of weird things going on re oil system mods, bearing orientation and weights that only Julian Godfrey knows why. I guess that's why he charges so many tens of thousands an engine. I don't have that kind of money though.
Have to buy a dry sump system as the Titan one I was going to get has fallen through. Trying to decide Opi or Pace at the mo. That's a major part of the build budget gone.
stevieturbo said:
Interesting, I like their sump pan, looks like it could add some strength to the 200 block.I`ve asked them for some pricing.
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