intercooling

Author
Discussion

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Thursday 6th February 2014
quotequote all
Hello there, has anyone heard of or used Secan cored intercoolers?

I am looking at a 32cm x 35cm x 3.5cm cored intercooler for a 500bhp YB on a gt3076 blowing at just under 2 bar. I have an inkling it could be a bit small? I know the secan cores are possibly the very best performing cores available but sometimes there is no substitute for cubes.........as in cubic centimetres!

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Thursday 6th February 2014
quotequote all
Cant say Ive ever heard of them other than googling after you mention them

Seems one UK GTR crowd use them

http://www.gtc-r.com/?page_id=379

Although it sounds like they are comparable to Garrett cores, which can only be a good thing.

But 35cm x 35cm x 3.5cm is rather small by any stretch of the imagination. Even more so if that includes end tanks !

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Thursday 6th February 2014
quotequote all
They manufacture heat exchangers that have been used in top flight Motorsport for decades. Or so I'm told.
Oh and they seem to be very expensive!
I'm also looking at Garrett cores and getting a cooler custom manufactured for the Westfield by someone like Spec-R as they are local. Garrett don't seem to have as many different sizes as Bell though.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
For 500bhp, you're gonna be pushing something like 0.384kg/s air mass flow, so with a compressor efficiency of say 78% (typical) and a 15degC ambient, that's 158degC comp out temp, and 55.2kW of compressor work.

To get to a typical plenum temp of 50degC, that'll need 41.7Kw of intercooling work and an overall IC effectiveness of just over 75%

For our ambient cooling air, entering at 15degC and exiting the IC core, on average at say 75% of peak compressor out temp (118degC) giving a deltaT of 103degC, you would require a volumetric flow rate of ~2.8m3/sec.

However, a 35x32cm cooler matrix gives you frontal area of 0.112m2, which if we take approx 65% of that for flow area is 0.073m2. That means you need an average velocity through the entire core frontal area of 38.4m/s, which is 86mph.

On balance, that i think is pushing your luck a bit, as i haven't included any temperature gradient across the IC heat transfer boundaries, or the fact that in reality it's difficult to use the entire flow area evenly.

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Thanks Max, I'm looking at fitting a air/air intercooler in the front of the car where the rad normally is and relocating a larger radiator to the rear of the car. I currently have a water/air system that I want to do away with.

Everyone keeps telling me turbo westfields are a terrible idea and that with IAT probs you'd be better off with a NA duratec. Now I say give me a problem and I'll find a solution. I love the power unhinged power delivery.

With an efficient Garrett core do you think I'd be able to fit a large enough intercooler in the nosecone?

I was thinking of canting it backwards so I can get a 42x51cm frontal area. Would this be enough? If not then I am looking at modifying the nosecone.

neal1980

2,574 posts

238 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
I had a problem with intercooler size and when I tried a smaller one it really held the car back as well...keep the core thick enough to allow it to flow which Im sure makes it less efficent but at least your car can breath then maybe add a water injection setup as well.


jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Thanks Neal, I probably will add an Aquamist hfs3 system, I want to get the basics right first. If it means modifying the nose cone to fit say a 42cm width and 60cm height x 6cm depth inter cooler then that's what I'll do.

What is people's opinions on the end tanks? Blow from left to right across core or top to bottom down core?

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
end tanks ?

simple. Smooth flowing, nice and open to ensure even flow through the core.

Exactly how much space is there at the front ? Obviously dont just state the actual opening dimensions, but actual space available behind the opening.

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
As stated roughly 42cmx51cm is the largest area behind nosecone, the actual opening is probably half that.

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
So you could maybe squeeze this in ? It's 3.5" thick though

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml...

The yanks really do favour this vertical flow design.

You could easily build something similar with a thinner core if required.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Vertical or crossflow makes no odds for an intercooler, but what matters is:

1) getting the biggest frontal area possible into the package space
2) making the end tanks work for you (i.e. flow well, and distribute flow evenly across the matrix)

F1/sportscar style end tanks are what you want to be looking at:

This:



NOT this:




By all means tilt the core to gain a larger surface area, but pay attention to having a smooth inlet and exit ducting to maximise flow across the matrix

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Also, generally speaking, "thick" cores don't add much extra, although they can be effective if used in conjunction with a water spray system (where the latent heat of evaporation helps keep the temperature rise of the air travelling through the core lower than it would otherwise be).

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
oh, and finally, ask the core manufacturer for dimensions, including flow paths, any pressure drop and thermal performance data they might have!

(you'd be amazed by how many firms selling cooling products have no data on the stuff they are selling.........)

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
I had bookmarked the treadstone site. Used a lot by the evo guys.

Those F1/sportscar intercoolers look spendy!

Thank you for your replies.


anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Get yourself some hardwood (or high density leminated "engineered" wood, sorry, for the life of me i can't remember what it's called now) blocks, carve them to the shape of the end tanks. Get a sheet of 2mm ally, a soft mallet, a blow torch, a bucket of water, and some soap. use the mallet to hammer the ally over the wood former, using the blow torch to anneal the ally (heat, until the soap immediately blackens when rubbed across the hot ally, then quickly quench in bucket). Spend a few hrs messing around to make the basic shapes, then take to your friendly local tig welder to stitch together and weld onto ends of core!


(you might want to play around with some cardboard templates first, to see roughly the sizes and how they pieces will fit together - long winter evenings will just fly by)

This is how i did my end caps ;-)

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
BTW, anyone who rates intercoolers in terms of "bhp" is an idiot...............

jontysafe

Original Poster:

2,351 posts

177 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
BTW, anyone who rates intercoolers in terms of "bhp" is an idiot...............
I have thought that. I have a 3.5" steel tube that will flow 800bhp but will cool feck all!

I`m being an optimist and MOTing the car end next week.


stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
BTW, anyone who rates intercoolers in terms of "bhp" is an idiot...............
Yes but you have to understand it's an American site selling largely to American buyers.

They favour the vertical flow as they seem to be able to package the least restrictive flow path for a given frontal area compared to a horizontal flow. Which does make sense

If Spec R are just down the road though, may as well just take it to them and let them work away. They use Garrett cores from what I understand

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
They favour the vertical flow as they seem to be able to package the least restrictive flow path for a given frontal area compared to a horizontal flow. Which does make sense
Does it? You're gonna have to explain it to me!

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Friday 7th February 2014
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Does it? You're gonna have to explain it to me!
Because it's much easier to achieve more flow paths for that same frontal area...ie tubes. The tubes are also shorter so offer less restriction.

And they will say because there are so many tubes, air slows down more and still spends enough time in there getting cooled.