Plug-in diesel upgrade units
Discussion
I run a fleet of 5 Citroen Relays and 4 Ford Transits for my business.
Does anybody have any experience of using these DIY plug-in tuning chips/units? At approx £400 a pop are they worth it and am I likely to get any problems further down the line possibly relating to warranty arguments, engine failures, etc...? At normal speeds are there any downsides?
I'm looking at the fuel economy benefits rather than power but it just seems all a bit too good to be true. I understand chipping an engine in search of extra power alone will increase the wear and tear of certain parts but I was told that if the vehicle is driven 'normally' then it is possible the life of parts can actually increase. There's logic to that but is that right?
The plan would be to buy one and see how it goes before committing to buying one for each vehicle. Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
Does anybody have any experience of using these DIY plug-in tuning chips/units? At approx £400 a pop are they worth it and am I likely to get any problems further down the line possibly relating to warranty arguments, engine failures, etc...? At normal speeds are there any downsides?
I'm looking at the fuel economy benefits rather than power but it just seems all a bit too good to be true. I understand chipping an engine in search of extra power alone will increase the wear and tear of certain parts but I was told that if the vehicle is driven 'normally' then it is possible the life of parts can actually increase. There's logic to that but is that right?
The plan would be to buy one and see how it goes before committing to buying one for each vehicle. Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
I've witnessed one of these boxes add around 10bhp and 30lbft or so to a Golf 1.9TDi. That cost him £9.99 though, it's just a resistor that tricks the ECU into feeding different fuel pressures.
Best bet is a proper remap, which should be within budget for £400, or even a copied map available from the likes of HDituning.co.uk
Best bet is a proper remap, which should be within budget for £400, or even a copied map available from the likes of HDituning.co.uk
sandymac20 said:
I run a fleet of 5 Citroen Relays and 4 Ford Transits for my business.
Does anybody have any experience of using these DIY plug-in tuning chips/units? At approx £400 a pop are they worth it and am I likely to get any problems further down the line possibly relating to warranty arguments, engine failures, etc...? At normal speeds are there any downsides?
I'm looking at the fuel economy benefits rather than power but it just seems all a bit too good to be true. I understand chipping an engine in search of extra power alone will increase the wear and tear of certain parts but I was told that if the vehicle is driven 'normally' then it is possible the life of parts can actually increase. There's logic to that but is that right?
The plan would be to buy one and see how it goes before committing to buying one for each vehicle. Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
Speak to someone like MSD in blackpool and get the job done right. Explain to them what you'd like to achieve from any changes and I'm sure they will try and accommodateDoes anybody have any experience of using these DIY plug-in tuning chips/units? At approx £400 a pop are they worth it and am I likely to get any problems further down the line possibly relating to warranty arguments, engine failures, etc...? At normal speeds are there any downsides?
I'm looking at the fuel economy benefits rather than power but it just seems all a bit too good to be true. I understand chipping an engine in search of extra power alone will increase the wear and tear of certain parts but I was told that if the vehicle is driven 'normally' then it is possible the life of parts can actually increase. There's logic to that but is that right?
The plan would be to buy one and see how it goes before committing to buying one for each vehicle. Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
This would be far better and safer than some generic one box fits all. £400 a pop seems a crazy price for a generic box anyway
I can't see any scientific basis by which the economy of a given diesel engine can be improved by increasing its power output. To understand why we need to look at the difference between the design of diesel and petrol engines. Petrol engines run at compression ratios below the optimum for extracting the maximum energy from a given amount of fuel which ideally wants to be in the 15:1 to 17:1 region. However such high CRs would cause massive detonation and instant engine failure on a normal road tuned engine hence the need to run CRs in the 9.5 to 11:1 region. Getting more air into a petrol engine can in some situations help offset this non-optimal compression ratio and improve efficiency.
However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
highly recommend a 'tuning box' from here http://www.tuning-diesels.co.uk/
Have one fitted to my V70 2.5 TDI, huge improvement, guesstimate ~30hp increase, no more smoke either
you can chose the level of extra-fuelling, and it reads from the MAF so doesn't add extra fuel until on-boost really
Oh and cost £144. might well be more for newer engines but still
Have one fitted to my V70 2.5 TDI, huge improvement, guesstimate ~30hp increase, no more smoke either
you can chose the level of extra-fuelling, and it reads from the MAF so doesn't add extra fuel until on-boost really
Oh and cost £144. might well be more for newer engines but still
Pumaracing said:
I can't see any scientific basis by which the economy of a given diesel engine can be improved by increasing its power output. To understand why we need to look at the difference between the design of diesel and petrol engines. Petrol engines run at compression ratios below the optimum for extracting the maximum energy from a given amount of fuel which ideally wants to be in the 15:1 to 17:1 region. However such high CRs would cause massive detonation and instant engine failure on a normal road tuned engine hence the need to run CRs in the 9.5 to 11:1 region. Getting more air into a petrol engine can in some situations help offset this non-optimal compression ratio and improve efficiency.
However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
Correct^^^ Except for one major factor, which is the engine calibration necessary to meet the mandated EU tailpipe emissions for NOx results in the engine being run richer than it absolutely needs to be at light load. A proper "aftermarket" recalibration CAN improve light load diesel economy by around 10%, but of course your car is technically illegal if modified to do so (although there is no way of the MOT test telling this.However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
However,, in my experience, the outlay of £400 on the "re-tune" brings such an enormously long payback time it is not economically viable to do so. Far better to spend the £400 on driver training, which can bring even larger economy benefits to your fleet!
Leaving aside the claimed economy improvements of these items, what are the expert PHers views on the performance improvements and do they have any significant downsides? I've been considering one of these boxes for a while but I am paranoid about DPF failure and can't work out if these boxes are likely to have any detrimental effect in this, or any other, regard.
Max_Torque said:
Correct^^^ Except for one major factor, which is the engine calibration necessary to meet the mandated EU tailpipe emissions for NOx results in the engine being run richer than it absolutely needs to be at light load. A proper "aftermarket" recalibration CAN improve light load diesel economy by around 10%, but of course your car is technically illegal if modified to do so (although there is no way of the MOT test telling this.
However,, in my experience, the outlay of £400 on the "re-tune" brings such an enormously long payback time it is not economically viable to do so. Far better to spend the £400 on driver training, which can bring even larger economy benefits to your fleet!
A genuine 10% improvement on a commercially used vehicle could easily be recouped in a very very short time. Obviously if it's a low mileage vehicle, then it will take much longer.However,, in my experience, the outlay of £400 on the "re-tune" brings such an enormously long payback time it is not economically viable to do so. Far better to spend the £400 on driver training, which can bring even larger economy benefits to your fleet!
However...I'd still query the abilities of these generic boxes vs a proper remap. How much can a generic plug in box actually do, given it's limited connections to either the ecu itself or anything that actually controls engine running ?
Max_Torque said:
Pumaracing said:
I can't see any scientific basis by which the economy of a given diesel engine can be improved by increasing its power output. To understand why we need to look at the difference between the design of diesel and petrol engines. Petrol engines run at compression ratios below the optimum for extracting the maximum energy from a given amount of fuel which ideally wants to be in the 15:1 to 17:1 region. However such high CRs would cause massive detonation and instant engine failure on a normal road tuned engine hence the need to run CRs in the 9.5 to 11:1 region. Getting more air into a petrol engine can in some situations help offset this non-optimal compression ratio and improve efficiency.
However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
Correct^^^ Except for one major factor, which is the engine calibration necessary to meet the mandated EU tailpipe emissions for NOx results in the engine being run richer than it absolutely needs to be at light load. A proper "aftermarket" recalibration CAN improve light load diesel economy by around 10%, but of course your car is technically illegal if modified to do so (although there is no way of the MOT test telling this.However diesel engines already operate above the optimum CR due to the need to ignite the fuel without a spark by compressing the gases enough to generate fuel igniting temperatures. Increasing the air consumption even further by raising turbo boost and increasing the fuel injected doesn't increase engine efficiency - it just raises power output in proportion to the extra fuel being burned.
The argument that with more power or torque you can then change up earlier and use a higher gear also doesn't hold much water. With a petrol engine this can help economy because petrol engines are throttled and spend most of their time with the cylinders only partly filled with air. Burn efficiency improves as cylinder filling goes up so more throttle (better cylinder filling) at lower rpm in a higher gear is generally better for economy than less throttle (less well filled cylinders) at higher rpm in a lower gear. But diesel engines aren't throttled anyway, they always run at maximum air induction at a given rpm.
If there was a magical way to massively increase economy from diesel engines, their main selling point, the manufacturers would do it anyway to compete. The claims of economy improvements of up to 20% from the purveyors of these chips is utter nonsense and anyway the marketing wording "up to" always only means "somewhere between zero and the figure we plucked out of thin air" so you can't sue us when it's actually really zero.
If you want more power then fine. If you want more economy then don't hold your breath.
However,, in my experience, the outlay of £400 on the "re-tune" brings such an enormously long payback time it is not economically viable to do so. Far better to spend the £400 on driver training, which can bring even larger economy benefits to your fleet!
But, reducing cylinder dilution with exhaust gases by altering the operation of the egr valve can improve economy at light load.
oakdale said:
I can't see how a diesel engine can be made to run richer at light load, if the timing event is anywhere near correct the engine will burn all the fuel available 100%.
I believe what Max-BS is referring to is the retarding of injection timing to reduce NOX emissions which also reduces power and hence requires more throttle/fuel i.e. richer mixture to restore the desired output. He just explained it very badly as usual 
I'm not sure about economy impacts of as much as 10% though for the average road vehicle. I haven't seen figures of more than a few percent but it isn't exactly my area of primary expertise. Perhaps he can supply data to back up his account.
Kitchski said:
I've witnessed one of these boxes add around 10bhp and 30lbft or so to a Golf 1.9TDi. That cost him £9.99 though, it's just a resistor that tricks the ECU into feeding different fuel pressures.
It also tricks the on board computer! This is where the quoted 'gains' in economy come from. More fuel is injected, power is up so throttle is backed off. The obc sees this as less throttle = less fuel. It doesn't measure fuel used, only average injector duration so it appears that economy improves. These "TuningChips" may increase power ( mainly by using boost) and on part throttle get more mph but you don't get both at the same time.
More power which by default uses more fuel or more economy which needs less throttle.
However 1 very important factor you have all failed to consider is that White Van Man (WVM) will be driving the now souped up racing van and it's not his personal van ( have you ever been tailgated or overtaken by a Mercades Sprinter at 110?) WMV will not look at the economy benefits that's for sure.
More power which by default uses more fuel or more economy which needs less throttle.
However 1 very important factor you have all failed to consider is that White Van Man (WVM) will be driving the now souped up racing van and it's not his personal van ( have you ever been tailgated or overtaken by a Mercades Sprinter at 110?) WMV will not look at the economy benefits that's for sure.
These "TuningChips" may increase power ( mainly by using boost) and on part throttle get more mph but you don't get both at the same time.
More power which by default uses more fuel or more economy which needs less throttle.
However 1 very important factor you have all failed to consider is that White Van Man (WVM) will be driving the now souped up racing van and it's not his personal van ( have you ever been tailgated or overtaken by a Mercades Sprinter at 110?) WMV will not look at the economy benefits that's for sure.
More power which by default uses more fuel or more economy which needs less throttle.
However 1 very important factor you have all failed to consider is that White Van Man (WVM) will be driving the now souped up racing van and it's not his personal van ( have you ever been tailgated or overtaken by a Mercades Sprinter at 110?) WMV will not look at the economy benefits that's for sure.
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