Winter Starting A Perkins - No Glow Plugs

[V8RX7]

Thanks for all the help.

I've been working by myself so couldn't turn the key and watch at the same time.

Managed to get a hand today... at first there was just a nice glow but after a few attempts there was a nice fire in the intake - but the damn thing still wouldn't start - but clearly it's not down to the cold start mech.

In frustration and as I had it in my hand from degreasing I tried spraying some brake cleaner down which had I engaged my brain I would have realised that all I'd get was a lovely flame thrower - slightly BBQ'd the intake hoses but part of me would have been happy if the damn thing burned to death.

[griff 200]

Firstly make sure that it turns over as fast as it can. Clean all the batt terms well and make sure tight etc don't forget to remove and clean the earth point on the chassis or engine always gets over looked!!! Been to hundreds and cleaning will make a difference or I'll eat my hat!! If you have now tested the heater and it gives a good flame not a small one then ok if in doubt try and run it connected out of the manifold flame should be 6inches high if small replace. You should heat the engine for 20 secs before trying to start!!! If still no good check fuel system blowing back to tank fitting new filter etc. or ring me. Richard 07860661358

[Doctor Volt]

griff 200

The opening post states that the battery goes flat after one minute
How will cleaning the battery terminals and earth points stop the battery going flat after one minute?

[jagracer]

Doctor Volt said:

griff 200

The opening post states that the battery goes flat after one minute
How will cleaning the battery terminals and earth points stop the battery going flat after one minute?

Because providing it isn't actually a problem with the engine there'll be full power going to the starter so It'll spin over faster and start before the battery goes flat.

[V8RX7]

I'd already done the earths / terminals - son of a classic car dealer here.

I always start it with a jump pack connected directly to the starter.

This combined with it's (older) battery means it spins over VERY fast for a minute - it's far from flat after a minute BUT unless it turns over fast it never starts. Usually if it turns over fast it starts within 5 seconds.

Further investigation today...

[Doctor Volt]

jagracer posted

Because providing it isn't actually a problem with the engine there'll be full power going to the starter so It'll spin over faster and start before the battery goes flat.

---

The opening post states that the battery goes flat after one minute
There is no mention anywhere in the opening post about volt drop problems from battery to starter

You post - there'll be full power going to the starter so It'll spin over faster and start before the battery goes flat.

So you think that cleaning battery terminals and earth points will cure a battery going flat in one minute do you?

---

Here is some more help for those (including griff 200 and jagracer) that seem a touch confused about the correct methods for checking a battery going flat in one minute

STEP 1) Start the vehicle and check the charging system, should the charging system be faulty - Rectify charging fault (Vey Easy To Do)

Wait a minute - The vehicle wont start so the charging cant be checked
Lets skip step 1) and move onto step 2), step 1) can be run through later when the vehicle is running

STEP 2) Connect a volt meter directly to the battery leads +ive and -ive terminals
For those that dont know
+ive Means Positive
-ive Means Negative
Now crank the starter and take a voltage reading, the voltage should not drop below 9.6 Volts
If after cranking at intervals for two or three minutes the voltage drops below 9.6 Volts there is a problem, this situation can be put down to one of four things

a) The battery is not fully charged
b) Their is a volt drop between the battery lead terminals and the battery terminals
c) The battery is faulty
d) The starter motor is faulty and drawing too much current

If the battery is not fully charged it must be trickle charged until the acid specific gravity reaches 1.25 or more and then left standing to cool down, once cool the battery must be drop tested (No dont pick it up and drop it on the floor), a heavy duty discharger must be used to carry out the capacity test (drop testing). The battery A/H Capacity (AMP PER HOUR for those that dont know) is required for this capacity test. Using a heavy duty discharger (High Rate Discharge Tester) a load of three times the battery A/H capacity must be applied for fifteen seconds and the battery voltage must hold to 9.6 Volts or more to pass the test

Please Note The above procedure is good to test any lead acid battery and has stood the test of time, figures for capacity test values may vary a little due to different battery technologies being used but the above figures will give a go or no go result

---

This is getting very complicated and time consuming - How can any of us wait for the battery to be charged, cooled and tested?

No problem. Lets speed things up alot

A known good battery is needed to continue the testing and that battery must be of the same A/H or higher than the original battery that needs charging and testing

Using a good battery we will now carry on with step 2)

a) The battery is not fully charged Is Being Dealt With
b) Their is a volt drop between the battery lead terminals and the battery terminals
c) The battery is faulty is Being Dealt With
d) The starter motor is faulty and drawing too much current

Next b)
The battery and lead terminals must be cleaned to solve a volt drop at the battery connections

Next d)
With a good battery fitted the cranking voltage at the battery lead terminals should not drop below 9.6 Volts - If the cranking voltage drops below 9.6 Volts it is due to the starter motor drawing too much current
The starter motor must be repaired or replaced before further testing

STEP 3)

Now being in a situation that a known good battery and starter motor is fitted to the vehicle, further testing can be carried out

Carry out whatever work is required to prevent the engine from firing for the below tests (Stop Fuel Supply, Remove Ignition Supply etc, be sure to do this in the correct way so as not to damage anything in any way)

A) With a Voltmeter connected to the battery lead terminals - Crank the engine several times at intervals and note the voltage readings - Voltage should now be 9.6 Volts or more, if the voltage is below 9.6 Volts the battery or starter motor that has been replaced will be flat or faulty

Nearly There - The battery and starter are testing good (Cranking Voltage Is Above 9.6 Volts

B)With a voltmeter connected between the battery lead +ive terminal and the starter motor main +ive terminal the engine must be cranked and a reading taken - The aforementioned reading is known as Voltage Drop.
The voltage drop of a good starter motor supply lead when cranking a good engine can be as much as 0.75 of a volt and if it is greater than that, the supply lead and connections must be repaired and cleaned

C) With a volt meter connected between the battery lead -ive terminal and the starter motor body the engine must be cranked and a reading taken - The aforementioned reading is known as Voltage Drop.
The voltage drop of a good starter motor earth (Ground) when cranking a good engine can be as much as 0.25 of a volt and if it is greater than that, the earth leads and connections must be repaired and cleaned

THE TEST IS NOW COMPLETE AND THE RECTIFICATION IS NOW COMPLETE

The original battery must be tested later and if ok refitted to the vehicle

(Edited Spelling Mistake)

Edited by Doctor Volt on Sunday 21st December 14:46

[jagracer]

Doctor Volt said:

jagracer posted

Because providing it isn't actually a problem with the engine there'll be full power going to the starter so It'll spin over faster and start before the battery goes flat.

---

The opening post states that the battery goes flat after one minute
Their is no mention anywhere in the opening post about volt drop problems from battery to starter

You post - there'll be full power going to the starter so It'll spin over faster and start before the battery goes flat.

So you think that cleaning battery terminals and earth points will cure a battery going flat in one minute do you?

---

Here is some more help for those (including griff 200 and jagracer) that seem a touch confused about the correct methods for checking a battery going flat in one minute

You patronising .

[Doctor Volt]

jagracer Posted - You patronising ***********censored

jagracer If you find my post patronising, so be it

My above post explains in depth what is required to test a starting malfunction

I have never and will never lower myself to posting anything offensive to a public forum

Thank you jagracer for your pleasant reply to my in depth post

Have a good day

Cheers. Doctor Volt

[S0 What]

jagracer said:

You patronising .

Possably, but that's just how he allways posts, although it does sound (or rather look) like he's just copying from a txt book it is good info.

[226bhp]

hidetheelephants said:

Don't use easy start as it fks engines.

Kinkell said:

Easy start can be addictive for old dervs and they become reluctant to kindle up even in warm weather so use with caution.

What utter rubbish.

[one eyed mick]

NOT UTTER RUBBISH AT ALL easy start or its derivitaves with kill some injectors esp pintle nozzle types used in 50/60's deisels I have witnessed this on early landrovers and bmc vans but not many would have any relevant knowledge on here [ Icould be very wrongabout the knowledge]

[Doctor Volt]

S0 What said:

Possably, but that's just how he allways posts, although it does sound (or rather look) like he's just copying from a txt book it is good info.

You know something S0 What - Although I dont post help to this forum for compliments, your post did bring a smile to my face
Thank you for the good info part of it

Now about the although it does sound (or rather look) like he's just copying from a txt book comment

You probably wont believe me but I will post it anyway -

That above post took me approximately 1.5 Hours to type up as I had to rack my brains for the best order for testing and also the voltage readings, I have been waiting for someone to correct me or question a value I posted, I always post from memory unless needing specific vehicle information that is not in my memory or putting up a link to a diagram of which I would then be giving advice using an aid, in doing so I do stand to be knocked for any mistakes
I am as sure as can be that my voltage drop figures (0.25 Volts Earth Side) and (0.75 Volts Live Side) are correct but I have not checked them online and do appreciate that the voltage drop across a long length of cable is more than that across a short length of cable but this issue is for the manufacturer of the vehicle to make allowances for by upgrading battery cable sizes accordingly

S0 What, now look what you have started

Adding to my above post -

It is of great importance that when carrying out the above mentioned voltage drop tests, be sure to check that the correct size battery and earth cables are fitted to the vehicle, this can prove to be difficult to check and sometimes a phone call or two to a vehicle specialist or dealer will be of great help

Thats another 40 minutes of my life spent thinking and typing, no problem as I do enjoy sharing my knowledge and experiences

S0 What. Have a good Christmas

Cheers. Doctor Volt

[S0 What]

You too Dr
Perhaps wooden or clinical style of writting would have been better, or better still i should shut the feck up cos my writting style is just fecking awfull

Easy start, it doesn't go through the injectors so make of that what you will, easy start does seem to make engine poor starters after continued use, a few possable reasons for this are, the easy start washes oil from the bore walls and the rings damage it so loosing compression and making them even harder to start as time goes on, cant see that myself (but i dont live inside a diesel combustion chamber), the more likely reason is, you start to use easy start on an engine cos it has trouble starting, if this is down to low comp it will only get worse, not easystarts fault the engine was on the way out to start with.
Some engine are well know for loosing comp quickly, the old Mk4 escort 1.8 non turbo would be a good starter for the first 50K or so then it needed a huge battery, an new starter and new glow plugs evey winter and even then it started on 2 then 3 then 4, i used to service a cab company fleet that used a lot of them, by 150K they would fit a new crate engine and they would be back to perfect starting again for a while then slowly drop back into old habbits, easy start was allways the last "fix" and heralded the imminant death of a derv.
Either way i prefer brake cleaner, not so flamable and makes less knock when running on it, some engines need to run on it for a min or 2 to bleed the system after a filter change rather than burn the starter out trying to clear the trapped air.

Older engines like the perkins simply dont run as good on modern diesel, it wasn't designed with older engines in mind, diesel today bears a meer resemblance to diesel of say the 80's, i run an old 80's TD and it runs a whole lot better when i blend my own fuel (60/40 diesel to SVO with added 2stroke at 300/1)

[hidetheelephants]

I'm not sure, but I suspect easy start either;

a) ignites faster than diesel, perhaps even detonating, and could cause damage, especially when squirted into the air intake while cranking rather than prior to cranking. It certainly has a much lower autoignition point than diesel.
b) more plausibly the faster ignition/detonation knocks off accumulated carbon deposits, or the stuff acts as a solvent and loosens them, which further reduces the compression of an already worn engine.

Either way, I've never found any engine manufacturer recommending their use, even under emergency conditions where I would personally do so, as they do aid starting.

[Doctor Volt]

S0 What And hidetheelephants

You have both taught me something, lets hope many of the easy start users read your in depth views, perhaps between you a few old diesel engines have been saved from the slaughter

Cheers. Doctor Volt

[PositronicRay]

I heard this from an ex AA patrol man. They had some old recovery trucks @ the depot that became addicted to the stuff. I suppose a one off in an emergency is okay.

[C Lee Farquar]

OP, might be worth checking the diesel isn't running back overnight. Try bleeding it before starting it to see if there's any air in the system.

[Jimmyarm]

C Lee Farquar said:

OP, might be worth checking the diesel isn't running back overnight. Try bleeding it before starting it to see if there's any air in the system.

My thoughts too.

If plastic isn't involved, apparently a weed burner can help cold old big diesels start if aimed at the inlet and everything else is working =)

[Theoldman]

V8RX7 said:

Thanks for all the help.

I've been working by myself so couldn't turn the key and watch at the same time.

Managed to get a hand today... at first there was just a nice glow but after a few attempts there was a nice fire in the intake - but the damn thing still wouldn't start - but clearly it's not down to the cold start mech.

In frustration and as I had it in my hand from degreasing I tried spraying some brake cleaner down which had I engaged my brain I would have realised that all I'd get was a lovely flame thrower - slightly BBQ'd the intake hoses but part of me would have been happy if the damn thing burned to death.

Well if the cold start is producing flames in the inlet, sounds like your injector is not injecting fuel possibly?

Crack open the injector pipe fiting at the injector and see it fuel spurts out as you crank it.
If it does, then I would remove the injector and reconnect the pipe, put a clear plastic bottle over the injector so you can see the spray pattern, to see if it is blocked.

WARNING HIGH PRESSURE fuel from the injector nozzel WILL pass through your skin, so keep away from the injector tip!!!

You are looking for a fine mist spray that starts and stops rapidly and cleanly, any dribbling or spitting and you need a new injector. Look at the tip to check how many holes it has and make sure they are all clear.

Injectors don't last forever, but can be ovehauled if you know how, but best just buy a new one as you need special tools to do it properly.

If no pressure is found, then you need make sure the pump is actually turning first. Sheared shafts can happen.
Then work through the fuel system systematically.
First the tank to make sure it is not full of water, then all the hoses, filter up to the pump to make sure fuel is reaching the pump with no splits letting air in.
CHECK that filter seal!!!!

Prime the pump, and open the vent on the top of th einjector puump to clear air, you should have a hand pump lever in there somewhere for this.

If none of this works then the engine may be ready for an overhaul and a compression check would be my first thing to check.

Diesel engines are Compression Ignition engines and the heat generated by the compression ignites the fuel mist as it is injected.
This IS Detonation as the flame speed goes supersonic and you get the knock.
So not enough compression and it won't ignite the fuel, which is why the cold start mechanism is required.

If low on compression, it could be bore glazing and just need a hone, but new rings for a 90's engine are likely.

Good luck, as old diesels will go on a long time if maintained correctly.

[griff 200]

Good fun on hear get me head blown off !! Only been working on farm tractors for 40 years most days for a living ? I've been to more starting faults caused by bad earth faults than I care to remember so please don't be so f ing patronising !!!!!!! I did note the one min but don't need an life story on it. Easy start don't use for long periods It tends to dislodge the carbon from the crown of the piston and it goes down the piston side skirt causing the rings to stick so low compression richard